Truly single-sex bra fittings for DD13

[Secretsquirrelshh]

Inspired by threads on here re: mixed sex fitting rooms, I need to find somewhere for DD13 (very shy, incredibly embarrassed by EVERYTHING) to have her first ever bra fitting.

M&S is obviously right out, and we don't have a lovely independent shop anywhere near us.

I see John Lewis no longer enforce single-sex changing spaces.

Does anyone have any recommendations of nationwide stores that do truly single-sex bra fittings?

You arent validating them as women. You are stating that they are transwomen. A man presenting as a woman. It adds clarity. No it wasnt Ricky Gervais, it was eddy izzard.

@Secretsquirrelshh you are overthinking this. At 13 (unless she has very large breasts, you do not need a bra fitting).

Go to M&S, chose some bras she likes and try them on. You will see whether they fit well or not. If tight or loose, nip out and get her a smaller or bigger size. Before you start, have a look round, clock the staff on duty - they will 99.99% be women.

The changing rooms in M&S are door rather than curtain. They are adjacent to the lingerie department and I've never seen a man using them to try on a suit. Actually, if I occasionally accompany DH to a shop and he needs to try on, the men's changing rooms are full of women - supervising and advising.

I, and many others, simply do not recognise the concept of a transwoman. It is ideological language, and pronouns are the tools used to validate it. I will not be coerced or lulled into using those terms.

What is it that you can't accept? Why is it so important to you that you keep pushing the term and the suggestion?

Look up Boob or bust for a bra fitting guide. Most shops are very poor at bra fittings.

Oh please do tell me what political point I'm trying to make?

DD has asked me to take her for a bra fitting. I am trying to make it as stress-free for her as possible, bearing in mind she's quite shy.

I haven't mentioned anything political at all - unless somehow you think it is political that a teenage girl can't get access to a single-sex space.

I answered someone else's query about why people arent clever enough to distinguish between men and transwomen and I stated that I think it would be clearer communication if people said trans woman when theyre talking about a transwoman.

You don't listen do you?

You personally accept the concept of a 'transwoman' and you obviously accept the language that goes with trans ideology. I don't, and neither do many others.It isn't any more complicated than that. What is your issue? Must everyone validate your particular take on matters? If you are fine with that lingo, then you can use it.

As i said, i answered someone else's query about why people don't distinguish between the two. Why dont you go back and answer them, too?

I think it's ridiculous not to accept the concept of transwoman. There are males who present as females and call themselves transwomen. You can acknowledge this phenomenon without accepting that they are women. Saying they dont exist just seems odd in comparison.

As you claim it to not be political then I am sorry to say that shops were never single sex spaces in understanding of EqA 2010, it's exactly as it always was.

Just tons of people now shouting and demanding expecting armed genital inspecting guards at the entrance to every space they deem "single sex" without reading what does that mean in EqA 2010.

Life goes on, as this is not political as you say, just book the appointment.

Are the changing rooms in your M&S not private cubicles with closed doors? Surely you can just go, and ask for a bra fitting? I:m pretty sure that there aren't any men bra fitters, but if you are worried about a trans woman doing the fitting (which seems unlikely but not impossible) you could contact the store and say that you would prefer a cisgender woman to do the firing and ask if that would be possible on date and time you had in mind. If it's just that you think she might be uncomfortable with a man within earshot, that's trickier. I can't think of any underwear stores where men aren't allowed, and I've certainly never experienced that environment and I'm in my fifties, but you could always look around and come back later if there are any men shopping in the store. Or find a small independent lingerie shop - they generally only have a single changing room for one customer at a time, and you could always contact them to ask when they are quietest - I suspect first thing in the morning is probably a good time.

If you want it to be as stress free as possible, may I gently suggest that you stop stressing and catastrophising over something that has an infinitesimal chance of happening.

Far better to teach her how to keep herself safe when she's out and about and increasingly independent than worrying about buying a bra in M&S.

Just around the corner from our M&S on Saturday morning in the early hours, a yiung woman was gang raped. I bet none of the perpetrators were trans women.

You would surprised. I used to work as a bra fitter and honestly women have no idea, for example, to make sure wire isn’t sitting on breast tissue.

Women often wore bands the were too loose and compensated by having their straps far too tight.

Another common issue is not taking into account that different materials and styles of bras have different fits and mean you may not be the same size in every bra.

Nothing to be ashamed about though like you are making out. Christ.

What a disgusting point-scoring comment to make about that poor woman who was raped @RosesAndHellebores. You should be ashamed. Despicable.

A girl out with her mum and in a locked cubicle is highly unlikely to experience a sexual assault. It really is a total non issue.

I did too. For Ann summers. People don’t want to listen to advise given any way. I would try and explain you might be a different size in a balconette to a plunger and t-shirt bra. People do lack common sense. I could honestly move to an island by myself and be happy 😂

We know you think it is "ridiculous". What do you hope to achieve by saying it over and over again?

Nobody is denying that anyone "exists", what is being rejected is their self definition (as defined by the radical wider ideology which gave birth to that terminolgy).

When I first came across your posts I thought perhaps you might be uninformed, or finding it difficult to understand people's points or to express yourself clearly. But now it appears you are deliberately ignoring arguments, including the point of my post here.

If you need more information or background, then I suggest one of the Break it down for me threads, eg:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5445899-break-it-down-for-me-2-general-break-it-down-archive-thread?page=1

If however you are deliberately ignoring the arguments then I'm not sure there is any point further engaging with you. In this case, it doesn't matter why or how a man presents, it matters that he is a man. And any man/male should never be in a women's single-sex space.

I think you are overthinking things, who cares if women, men, trans women or trans men are around outside a closed door. As long as they can't see your daughter naked does it matter.

Go to rigby and peller for a bra fitting. She'll be fitted very well by a woman and you can reflect on how much you care about pushing your prejudices onto your daughter as you hand over the equivalent of a weekly shop for a single bra that won't last more than. 6 months as she's still growing.

I also bet they weren't transwomen (until they get jailed, then who knows).

I bet they were men though.

I don't know how many times I can type out for the hard-of-reading that this is not a safeguarding issue. It is a dignity and privacy and feeling comfortable issue.

OP, you ask someone above if they think it's political that a teenage girl can't get access to a single sex space.

It is exactly that now.

This is not your doing, but the doing of men in dresses. You're probably aware of the case of the Brighton school being taken to court for allowing boys into girls' changing rooms. Political. Same thing in concept as men in lingerie changing rooms.

You and your daughter feel as you do and want to do what you are planning. Fair enough. Ignore all those on here who say 'why? At her size???' It's not up to them. It's not what you want to know. Also ignore those women who think women sitting around men's changing rooms awaiting their husband to appear in his new trousers is comparable. Those women clearly have no idea of what the drivers are for men being around girls & women in such circumstances.

I hope you find what you need.

Let's agree to keep men out of spaces where women are getting undressed regardless of how they identify. If for not women's comfort and dignity then for their safety. Whilst chances of assault are low, voyeurism is on the rise and teeny cameras readily accessible. Keep men out - and that includes male employees including those who identify as trans. If stores badge fitting rooms as male/female (and they should) then the law protects these spaces as single sex. It is a nonsense to talk about genital inspections. For one, most trans identifying men do not pass. And secondly what we demand is a return to the social contract which deemed that men willingly respect female spaces. Nowadays this must include transwomen. We have these ridiculous arguments because some men and their supporters (including unfortunately many women) but their desires before women's needs.

I'd feel uncomfortable if there were strange men outside of a cubicle in which I was undressed, and I can certainly imagine a young girl might feel that even more.

I think you are overthinking things, who cares if women, men, trans women or trans men are around outside a closed door. As long as they can't see your daughter naked does it matter.

What's on it for the women and girls? Give me one single advantage for them?

But keeping men out of women's changing rooms is not just about the risk of rape or SA. I refer you to my earlier comment about the teeny cameras.