feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

But what if someone's demands on you make you feel uncomfortable? How do you balance those scales and what criteria would you use to decide?

The link between trans identification and mental ilness is strong. I'd recommend a listen to the fantastic podcast "Gender: A Wider Lens" for more insight on this. I don't think it's a controversial opinion to be honest. It's far less sinister than medical transition which essentially says "your mind is correct, so your body is wrong!" and causes permanent damage... much more damage than a psychiatrist asking "why do you feel like the opposite sex?".

This.
And kudos to all the patient, thoughtful posters on here who respond with clarity, insight and information for the confused.

Saying facts is nothing similar to saying the n word. Don't be ridiculous

So you think that recognising mental illness as illness is hateful? Do you apply that to conditions such as schizophrenia and anorexia nervosa as well as to gender dysphoria? And you think treating mentally ill people so that they recover their health is hateful?

okay.

And declining to tell lies is hateful too?

And that insisting on telling truth is incompatible with feminism?

Genuine question, if someone prefers to be called something why would you not wish to do so? If someone told me their new name was Turd, I may think to myself that it’s silly, but I would happily go along with this in order to be polite and respectful to those around me. I certainly wouldn’t refuse to just because I think it’s wrong or silly

But language is important for the first camp too.

A woman commits a crime, which prison should she be put in? The men or women’s prison?

What if that crime was raping someone with her penis? Is your answer the same?

Now how do you propose we know how to classify the person in the first question if we don’t have the words to accurately label them? And what would we even label the prisons?

If you're feminist, you put women and children first. The end. No matter the body mods & clothing. No matter the intrinsic feels. No matter the yearning.

If you are a man you benefit from patriarchy, so cannot (despite your very best intentions) be a feminist. Ally, yes, I guess, feminist no.

OP, just make your choice, nobody gives a shit but you're either for women or men.

Just chose, nobody cares.

I think the way that a lot of people refer to “declining to tell lies” rather than “being respectful and polite even when I disagree” says a lot to me 🤷🏻‍♀️

At what stage can I stop pandering to lies? You want me to use incorrect pronouns for someone, ie lie, to appease the feelings of someone? When do we stop lying then? If they truly believe they are what they say they are they’ll need no affirmation from me will they? I will not pander to anyone who expects me to airbrush fact.

I would happily go along with this in order to be polite and respectful to those around me. I certainly wouldn’t refuse to just because I think it’s wrong or silly

#BeKind? That has not #BeenKind to women.

The definition of feminism is the belief in equality for women and men, I don’t see why both women and men cannot strive for this. The definition also makes no reference to putting children first

The absolute gall of comparing using correct sex pronouns to the n-word, is so patently offensive to me as a black woman, that it actually makes my blood boil.

The very fact that you can't even type out "the n-word", should tell you something.

I am not referring to a legal sense, I mean if a friend asks you to call them something I see no harm in doing so

No it's not.

It's recognising out differences and that things need to change to accommodate them.

You want to put men first, carry on.

But you're not a feminist

I thought that about a decade ago. Then I caught up with reality. Polite lies are an easy option, but neither kind nor safe.

I’m offended by men pretending to be women, just as I find white people pretending to be black offensive. It’s a form of mockery. If refusing to believe that these men are who they say they are is ‘transphobic’ then so be it. I will never refer to a male person using she/her pronouns. If in a professional context I’ll avoid pronouns altogether, replacing with the name if necessary.

Calling a man “she” is lying. Why do you think it’s not? And from what I’ve seen from the posters on this board, most wouldn’t have a problem using a change of name. It’s the incorrect pronouns that are the issue.

Women must be respectful.
It's anti feminist not to be nice.

Apparently.

'Equality' doesn't mean being the same. it can also mean having due repect for differences and taking measures to accommodate them.

What does 'equality' look like for you?

The NHS nurse Jennifer Melle was called the n-word three times and physically threatened because she referred to a sex-offending male prisoner who said he's a woman, as "he" in a phone call.

Guess which one was punished for "misgendering" and being a "dangerous" individual?

Don't piss me off.

agree @solerolover but that’s the epitome to me of their self centredness! To take all that historical struggle and difficulty and equate it to their “waaahhh they don’t do what I want and go along with my delusion that I am identifying into”…

Absolutely.
It's people like the OP who see themselves as allies who are responsible for the pain. By affirming and using pronouns they ease their own conscience, but each time they play along, they are building up more speed for the trans person's eventual collision course with reality.

Okay so your neighbour is the fastest at their local park run, and she’s been asked to join the national running team on Olympic track. Which practice should she join? Should she be allocated to the women’s team or the men’s team?

And then when you’re out for coffee one of her friends introduces themselves as Miss Sally Smith and asks where the toilets are. Where do you point her to?

When you ask for a woman doctor and a man with a penis and long hair and a dress asks you to remove your underwear, are you okay with that?

None of these are in a legal sense, so where do you draw the line? Is your argument that you call them a woman until they want to do something that only women can do and then you tell them you were just lying to them the whole time?

I don’t think it’s as clear cut as there’s two camps, one for women’s rights and safety and the other who say it’s a mental illness and refusing to use preferred pronouns.
I am all for not having trans women in women’s spaces for the safety and protection of women, yet I also believe you have a mental illness if you are trans. As for the women/men who want to be called, they/them or whatever pronoun you’re going with I find them ridiculous, I’d never go out of my way to be rude to a trans person or someone not using S/he but I still think it’s stupid. So I have bits from both camps