feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

If it's not a mental health problem, then what is it? Thinking something that is not and cannot be true is a delusion, and that falls into mental health territory. If I thought I was Jesus or an owl, that would be rightly labelled a mental health issue, but neither of those things are any less possible than me somehow being a man and not the woman I was born as.

In terms of pronouns, I use sex-based pronouns, not gender based ones. Why should I twist my language or lie about what I believe to placate someone else?

You would probably consider me transphobic, but my best friend is a transwoman, and he's perfectly fine with my stance on things, so...

Are you really only thinking about personal friends here? What people agree with their friends and family is one thing, but that doesn't translate to the general public realm...which has far more significant consequences.

What of the male doctor that turns up one day at work saying he is now a woman ( he is also married to a woman) and expects you, a junior nurse, to refer to him as 'she' and also expects you to feel comfortable with him getting changed in the nurses ( female) changing area? He's over 6ft, wears boxer shorts, and has an obviously male voice. He stares as you change into and out of your scrubs.

He reports you for accidentally 'misgendering him' and tries to get you disciplined.He also expects the elderly patient, who can see he is male, also to refer to him as 'she' and gets upset when she keeps referring to him as 'he' or 'sir'?

Hoe can believing something you are provably not be anything other than a mental illness?

I used to work in a MH setting. We had a patient who was adamant he was King David, yes the one from the bible. Another who believed he was one of the Saints as they shared a name. And another who was apparently pregnant with God's child.

Why is it that these were all seen as delusions, yet a man insisting he is a woman (and vice versa) isn't?

Ias there any line or boundary you draw when trying to accommodate other people's wishes, or do you always weigh the scales in their favour?

No one here is saying people can’t call themselves what they want. Pronouns, however, are not a person’s chosen name. They are a part of language you use as a shorthand to talk about someone, not to them. Why should anyone get to dictate the way that one naturally uses language? Did you get round to reading the ‘Pronouns are rohypnol’ article yet?

For some people integrity and truthfulness are very important and non negotiable. Most people aim to be polite and respectful to strangers and to those in their immediate orbit, but also have boundaries, integrity and self respect too and do not take kindly to being manipulated or used in away which makes them feel uncomfortable.

Absolutely no fucking way will I ever, regardless of how he chose to identify, call my rapist anything but he. He raped me with his penis. He used his sex to rape me. Literally.

if he puts on a dress he’s still male and I will still call him he.

tell me im wrong @giraffezoo and if so, how and why?

Yes, pronouns don't belong to an individual, they are social tools and signifiers.

Because it's validating a man as a woman. I'm not going to do that, because men are not women.

Here is an archive link to an article that will help you to understand why changing the language that people use can make it difficult to have sensible discussions on difficult subjects.

https://archive.ph/y9lR7

In order to have a useful conversation on any topic, there has to be a shared understanding of language. One of the best tools to obfuscate an issue is to muddy the language, resulting in such anachronisms as “her penis”, famously used in a rape trial. Attempts to enforce control of language are usually to be regarded as erosion of freedom of thought and speech.

The N word does not describe any material reality. It no longer being used does not detract from a shared understanding of language. Referring to a “him” as a “her”, does materially affect how a person understands a fundamentally important piece of information about another person. Whether someone is male or female has enormous knock on effects in terms of risk profile, discrimination, shared life experiences and health. Knowing this information provides all of us with important information about one another.

It could be effectively argued that knowing that someone is trans is similarly relevant, and I wouldn’t personally have an issue with a pronoun which indicated that X person was a trans man or trans woman (besides the inherent ridiculousness and difficulty of introducing neopronouns).

However, asking to be verbally accepted into a sex class you don’t belong to is asking a big favour of another person. You are asking them to ignore material reality. Someone may do this out of politeness, but it’s not fair to expect everyone to do this, and it has wide reaching consequences across all dimensions of life.

I hope that helps clear up some of your confusion.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

The thing is, sadly, being trans is definitely a mental disorder. The 25 year outcome study published this week in Finland - following over 2000 young people who had affirming interventions, and matched each individual to 4 other people who did not have gender dysphoria, showed that not only did intervention not alleviate their feelings but that they were 3-6x more likely to exhibit/develop further psychiatric morbidities (excluding the ones identified prior to transitioning) than non dysphoric peers. Ie, it did not make things better but made things worse. Massively worse.

Why? Because they are not ‘transgender’. They are struggling with significant MH issues that should have been addressed and supported with neutral science based therapy. It is disingenuous at best to say that these individuals are anything other than mentally ill.

I would absolutely intervene in any was attacked, harassed or victimised in public - as I would for any vulnerable person - but I’d also fight for TW not to be in my female-only sex-protected space. Knowing that these people are ill is not unkind, bigoted or hateful. My DD who is calling herself “transgender” again, is AuDHD, with anxiety, depression and EuPD… and every one of her trans friends has a whole collection of psychiatric diagnostic mnemonics, so there is no doubt these are vulnerable, damaged, ill young people. We need to stop pretending that we don’t know they are ill, pretending that they are normal, that the insane belief that they can become the opposite sex/were born in the wrong body is sound and that transitioning might even fix them.

The Finish study shows that over 2000 young people lives have devastated by NOT acknowledging this and giving them the support they need, rather than removing their genitals/breasts. I suspect the 9000 transitioned individuals whose records the Tavistock and other GICs could not find, are similarly psychologically damaged. We need to stop colluding with this narrative and start helping them. As a society we have aided and abetted the wholesale neglect and medical abuse of a generation of young people for the last 15 years at least. We should be appalled, not supporting its continuation.

It would be nice (and respectful) if the OP actually responded to some of my responses to her posts. If you start a thread and it contains very strong statements, and/or poses questions, then I do think that you should at least try to engage with reasoned and polite replies.

This is complicated for me. There was a time when I felt the same as you and would have made the attempt. What changed for me is noticing the sheer pressure placed on those who don’t feel able to comply.

The behaviour patterns demonstrated towards women who don’t comply are so aggressive that it seems to me that what we are witnessing is a form of coercive control. Having experienced that in a relationship, I am now very reluctant to go along with anyone making that demand. For me, it’s asking me to lie, which makes me extremely uncomfortable.

In a relationship without coercive control, the friend would understand how uncomfortable their request would make me and they either wouldn’t ask me to do it, or they would be able to discuss it to achieve a compromise we could both accept.

If they are unable to accept my boundaries, which include not lying about something obviously untrue, then they are not a good friend.

Transactivism is filled with signals of coercive control. You only have to look at the bullying behaviour towards women who say no to see that. That is why many women who have been objecting for a long time become less and less compliant towards the unreasonable demands that are being made.

She can’t respond. Other than to tell us to stop being unkind!

Indeed - language really matters which is why #nodebate and #TWAW were the tactics

Gender dysphoria should be treated as a mental illness in the same way as conditions like body dysmorphia. The cynic in me wonders if there was pressure to move away from classifying it as an illness so it could be defunded in the NHS, and a flourishing private medicine industry around surgical modifications could be developed.

I am respectful and use preferred pronouns when they are known. I think if you genuinely believe that trans people are sick, you have to treat them gently. But I will always put the rights of biological women first. Like the women who cannot self identify their way out of FGM, and numerous other disadvantages of being female in a patriarchal world.

You know women were institutionalised for hysteria just cos they wouldn’t comply with mens every demand once upon a time. Just because we did something once doesn’t make it the gold standard and correct for all time.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I do worry for what happens to biological / cis women who aren’t feminine / pretty enough to ‘pass’ if this vitriol towards transgender women continues.

If I refer to my colleague Davina, formerly Dave, as 'she' and 'her', how can I then say that Davina shouldn't use the women's toilets at work?

By using pronouns signifying a female individual, haven't I just publicly accepted that Davina formerly Dave, is female?

You don’t really think using correctly sexed pronouns is the same as using racist and homophobic slurs? Come off it.

I don’t call males “she” as I value my own right to speak the truth and manifest my own lawful protected opinions in a reasonable way above the comfort and feelings of men who say they are women.

Integrity and truthfulness are important to me, very much so.

I suppose the difference here is that I don’t see this as “lying” as lots of people on here apparently do!

I apologise for not responding sooner to your comment

Hi. No.

Equality for women would mean women killing men at the rate of 2-3 a week. What we want is for men to stop killing women.

If you dont understand feminism maybe do some research? Before you tell women who call men 'men' that they are 'transphobic'.

And anyway a phobia is an irrational fear. Women have a totally rational fear of men who enter female spaces as that is predatory behaviour.

'I do worry for what happens to biological / cis women who aren’t feminine / pretty enough to ‘pass’ if this vitriol towards transgender women continues.'

There's no such thing as 'cis'. Being a woman has nothing to do with being 'feminine' or 'pretty,' for the love of sanity. Women who have short hair / no make up / trousers / flat shoes / faces like a stone archway are still women, and that will be immediately obvious to EVERYONE who even gives them a passing glance

If it isn’t lying what is it? Human beings cannot change sex.

I was violently raped and sexually assaulted. If the man who did that decided to identify as female tomorrow, you make me say she raped me with her penis? Really?

Just to add in response to quite a few comments, rather than replying individually, I am by no means saying transgender people don’t need support for their mental health. It has been shown many times that trans people often do have poor mental health and this absolutely should be supported. What I don’t think we should be doing is telling these people that they aren’t trans and that this is the cause of their issue

"Again, we don’t call gay people the f word."

But that has never really happened in this country.

I had to really wrack my mind to think of what word you meant. I must say that I grew up eating Brains faggots as a child. The use of the word faggot as a slur seems to be a very recent import indeed, an Americanism.

Now if you had used other terms, such as "poof" or "queer", then yes, I would agree, you really shouldn't be calling anyone queer or a poof.

That your first thought was the word faggot, rather than the words more commonly used here makes me think that you are perhaps from the USA?

There is a whole different discourse in the UK compared to the USA.

.

I do believe that you are being rather disingenuous in your OP.

You said:

"...citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured."

I don't think that I have seen anybody here say that, are you perhaps just putting forward a bit of a straw man argument here?