feminism or transphobia?

[giraffezoo]

Long time lurker of this forum, first time poster.

I have read through many of the threads on here and I have to say there are lots of views that I find quite shocking.

There almost seems to be two sides of the ‘gender critical’ movement on here that I can see.

The first seems quite reasonable. They wish to have protections in place for women and their rights. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree (e.g. trans folk in toilets, transgender prisoners etc) they are stating a view based on safety and women’s rights.

The second bunch are the ones who I find myself disagreeing with, and who post things that I personally consider as transphobic. Some examples of this would be: refusing to use someone’s pronouns or citing being transgender as a mental illness which needs to be cured.

I feel that the first group are genuinely feminists who are concerned with women’s rights, and feel as though they need to speak out on their own concerns. The second group are masquerading under the pretence of feminism to say hateful or controversial things.

I am interested to hear other views on this point (and I’m sure there will be a lot here who don’t agree with me!)

I’ve tried and tried to have a discussion with those on the other side of the debate to me.

but I can’t ever get anything more than feels like a woman, internal cognition and ignorance around trauma.

I've found M's and other similar posters' responses to you particularly eye-opening at times. It's rather given the lie to any professions of kindness, caution, professionalism etc. and sometimes been pretty upsetting to see. 💐

I guess I'm now detracting from the main discussion too by waffling on about language and style. It's just my thing, it really interests me. I'll step back now so any more posts can get back to the topic and hand and these last pages aren't stuck on a side-issue.

Huh. For anyone wanting to continue on this kind of stuff (I would, but have to get back to work now... in theory...):

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5514957-late-night-surprise-about-reputation-of-fwr

It's such an issue.

(And who knows, give me a few more years in this and I may be reduced to furious Anglo-Saxon swears and maddened by my own earlier posts - I know I'm a relative newbie to it by the standard of many here!)

Thank you.

I find the lies that are told about me particularly upsetting.

I do (as I am sure regulars have noticed) take breaks from here for the sake of my mental health.

Me neither.

Maybe "golden bridges" work as a good metaphor here?

We did that for several years here.

It was still shat on and seen as weakness to try and take another mile.

If you come here looking to be disrespectful then don't expect respect. Golden bridges seem to be deemed women's work. Id like to see you ask to make golden bridges on Reddit.

Once again this comes back to women being seen as easy. This has raised its head time and again with the NHS more or less having a policy stating "well it's easier to say no to women than it is to deal with these extremists who are in a state of permanent lying and denialism".

Unless we just say a hard fast "No!" We will never be taken seriously. That's my problem.

I can see that. It may say something for your POV that the more time someone spends fighting the GC corner, the more they seem to incline towards that way of thinking. We say that it's more common to become a TERF than to move in the other direction, and tend to see that as evidence for the strength of our position. Maybe the same goes for your thinking on tone 🤷‍♀️. (Maybe ask me again in a year or two... And Hell no, to any Reddit building work!)

It's not about my position.

It's about understanding that since time began on every subject in politics suppression of the truth creates a bubble which eventually bursts and collapses on itself.

This is about authorisation v liberalism.

The fact that lots of people think this is purely about trans issues is part of the bloody problem.

I'd agree with this. What brought me here initially was the Kathleen Stock affair, which showcased a serious attack on academic freedom being supported by academics, students and a trade union, and the lack of a robust response from the university concerned. The fact that the subject of it was whether or not sex is real (and matters in certain situations) added a whole other layer of absurdity to the situation, and I decided to find out more; but it certainly wasn't my initial concern.

We say that it's more common to become a TERF than to move in the other direction, and tend to see that as evidence for the strength of our position.

Has any TERF ever moved from GC to Be Kind or even TRA?

You can't legislate for being kind in selective scenarios whilst say a is legitimate but b is not legitimate.

It's the pick n mix mentality and the inability to write a legal definition of 'what is a woman' which doesn't refer to sexist notions of feminity and doesn't refer to being something abstract in someone head that can't be verified by a neutral third party that absolutely kill the entire thing stone cold.

It is about observing reality from a position which doesn't involve emotive arguments (blackmail and coercion) that mean it's impossible to square the circle.

Authoritarianism (typo above?) v. liberalism? OK, bigger picture to think about there, definitely.

I certainly don't think the limitations placed on women's discourse only relate to the trans stuff - if only. I see that as symptomatic of a wider issue, or a magnification of it.

But authoritarianism (again, if I understand rightly) v. liberalism would feel v. strong to me as applied to the policing of women's language and expression (while also ironically aware that using "policing" in this context could itself undermine my argument).

If you're expanding it to encompass a wider shift towards some kind of Orwellian newspeak, I do agre, though. His "Politics and the English Language" feels more apt by the day. And what increasingly disturbs me is the way these trends are seeping from politics and head office into normal discourse.

One rather arbitrary example...

I was watching one of the Race Across The World seasons recently. There are two sets of sublings in it, one in their 50s, the other in their 20s, -ish, each with a difficult history that could have led to resentment on one or the other side. And the two in their 50s are moving through and beyond this - a few open conversations, a lot of actions-speaking-louder-than-words, and a growing relationship. The young adults, in contrast, seem stuck in an endless circle of psychobabble which is clearly just enabling avoidance of the issue at hand. It's all, "We need to build on our relationship," and "I've never really felt able to share my truth with her..." kinda thing. It's meant well, and they're a likeable pair, but the generational difference is striking. It's just inadequate words masquerading as meaningful engagement - much like many here would argue using "she" out of "kindness", or just sticking your pronouns at the bottom of an email, is.

We seem as a society to be embracing doubleplusgood waffle to a degree that's making it increasingly hard for younger generations to recognise it as the largely insubstantial crap it often is.

I'm sure a few will have, it's a big world out there.

And I think a few lost souls flip back and forth, because what they are really looking for is something emotional but they think for a while they have found it particpating in one group or another.

Damn, sudden posting influx. My above, a response to Red at 1742.

There have been some claims made by visitors I've seen. But often arguably undermined by the kind of inconsistency in posting style and content we've seen on this thread - if I remember fairly.

I've been saying the whole damn thing is Orwellian in multiple ways for over a decade on MN now.

Slowly but surely people are getting it.

The truth has an annoying habit of eventually coming out and being inconvenient.

Totally agree it's Orwellian. Honestly, of so many aspects of our society disturbingly close to his vision, trans ideology seems to be one of the most extraordinarily representative. Two and two, Newspeak, the Two-Minute Hate, kids educated to be informants, media memory-holing, dubious Ministries, do-it-to-Julia, clocks striking a symbolically impossible 13... I mean, it's all bloody there.

In agreement with RTB

Fuck the 'Golden Bridge'
It's just seen as a weakness.
'Be kind!. Yet again.

There once was a Bridge that was Golden.
It held its creators beholden -
To "Be Kind and Pronoun,
Just give up and bow down..."
They'd really, said Red, just been sold one.*

(*Created entirely without the help of AI. No, I'm not letting that one go. It smarted.)

Catiette, don't fret.
We don't think you use AI.
Poster straw grasping.

Thanks for saying that.
AI's Orwellian too,
And I don't trust it.

😂

That's a very good point, and I think it is correct. It isn't complete, but it is correct.

In real life I have a tendency - sometimes a gift sometimes a curse - to feel past what people are saying to what they are feeling, or what I suspect they are feeling.

You are right I did that with mattala and wanted to put in - not so much a golden bridge as a circuit breaker, because I sensed that they were getting overwhelmed with all the posts, and I thought that they were just saying the same things over and over, with little time to reflect or shape their reactions.

It seemed like a good idea to reach out to break the break that cycle, especially when ADHD was mentioned.

And yes, I wanted mattala to go away and have a break and not get over-fatigued as can happen with ADHD. In similar circs I get migraines, and sometimes if I get caught up in something I need to be reminded to stop and take care of myself.

I knew it was a bit of a risk but it felt like the right thing to do. For the discussion? or for me? Both I think.

I'd like to point out to RedToothBrush that I didn't tell anyone to shut up or be nice, I made it clear that I didn't agree with mattala, and I knew in advance that it might come across like that.

I accept both Red's criticisms and BusyAzureTraybake's perceptive challenge.

Thank you for answering.

Absolute bingo.

Searching for feels in a confusing, sentiment driven new world.

That is a healthy and sensible approach. One I could certainy learn from.

I mean I'm fine, but I do get weary, and then you lose patience.

Its been a fucking long few years.

But .... look at what we have done! Forstater! Supreme Court! Cass!

And all by women coming together and resisting and resisting and being courageous and determined.

Women are bloody amazing.

to you all.