Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

[FairHippopotama]

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

Amen!

And goodnight! (Wish I could write a blues tune...)

If gender identity were innate, then "gender fluid" people couldn't exist. This is just one of many examples of how gender ideology is self refuting.

No. Gender is externally imposed by society and is entirely regressive.
Add that one to your screenshots for Reddit and Bluesky.
Mumsnet is SOOOOO transphobic ya?

Why do you think that? I would say that, given that 'gender identity' usually matches a person's sex, and that gender identity is only really conceived of by the outlier (cisgender people not questioning their gender or considering it as anything but corresponding to their sex), it's not a biological fact.

No, I don't. I have no idea what gender feels like; I have no idea how trans people feel differently from cis people. I do know that most cis people are similar and that is why I don't believe that gender identity is a biological reality in the way many describe.

I don't think the bit about religion is necessary or helpful though. They're not really comparable, are they?

Thanks for sharing your experience. I find it very interesting; I've posed this same question to a few trans communities and I received a reply from an agender person who didn't feel any inherent gender (like cis people), but decided that because their personality couldn't be categorised into a gender (roughly their words), they must be agender. I feel that they are most likely on the same journey that you have been on.

This is one of the flaws in the core argument of the gender-affirming movement. All transitions are treated as equally valid, although in some cases, like this, they don't emerge from 'true' gender dysphoria but rather as a way to escape a defined social role.

I feel like you are confusing gender identity with gender roles and gender expression.

Thank you.

What you describe as not particularly identifying with a specific gender sounds very much like the experience of most cisgender people, although you may dislike being whatever gender you are.

I think I fully agree with you. A biological gender identity doesn't really exist.

I don't see anything wrong with defining what I actually mean, so we're all on the same page. Otherwise, I would receive answers that aren't relevant to what I'm interested in

I'm not looking to write an essay or compile this 'data' for a project. (Half of it is a tangent about sexism, anyway.) I'm simply someone curious about the opinions of people on this subject; I have a trans brother (FtM) and am very interested in both the philosophy and biology behind it all. To that end, I was wondering what the good users of Mumsnet thought.

I don't know if the religion comparison is that valid. I used to be like that with Christianity, but at some point I think I accepted that doubt is OK. In fact, uncertaintyi.e. the presence of doubtis the whole point of faith. I don't believe only some people are able to be religious. Consider that the number of people with this ability would have had to vary a lot over the last couple centuries, for one.

I agree with this exactly. The second trend you mention seems to commonly emerge around puberty, with the pressures of gender roles becoming increasingly significant along with the other pressures that puberty brings biologically as well as mental conditions like autism and ADHD potentially becoming apparent.

I think there's also a third group, people who transition in adulthood. There's still links to gender roles and the structure of society, but also a larger focus on sexuality.

My bad, I really didn't think this would garner this level of response. I barely ever use Mumsnet to be honest

I don't think I do. I believe everyone has a self-perception of themselves and somewhat of an understanding of where they 'fit' in the world around them...along with awareness of class, race, education, community, country of origin, etc.

The closest I think I've come to having a gender identity was as a child with the belief I would move heaven and earth to sexually develop into a woman, regardless of what it took (only HRT and SRS as it turned out). I would age and grow old as a woman.

I know other boys didn't have these thoughts, or at least didn't admit to them. I had no other vision of my future. Girls were generally onboard with the idea. I can't imagine what it is like to not have this dominate your childhood and adolescence.

Once puberty and the surgery was done, and had the rest of my life ahead, I've simply been me. I have haven't experienced any dysmorphia or dysphoria. I've not wished I was someone else, I've not regretted anything. I don't think I identify as any gender, but I am aware of how I am treated in relation to gender expectations, gender-based socialisation, communication and stereotypes.

my innate sense of self is just a personality.

gender identity as a philosophy is just a modern variant of good old fashioned sexism.

editing to add that none of this denies the existence of body dysmorphia.

It was all so much easier when I was growing up in the 60s/70s. Sex and gender were one and the same, the latter being more of a grammatical term used mostly when the word ‘sex’ might have raised a snigger. Yes, I’m something of a dinosaur but it irks me that so many people these day seem to genuinely believe that gender has always been a separate term related to social conventions when it’s merely a modern, academic construct, albeit one that’s firmly taken hold.

But I realise the above didn’t answer your question OP. So, no, to both - I’m a woman, whatever that feels like, and there’s no getting away from the fact.

No.

Sexed identities exist, in that your physical sexed body influences the way you perceive yourself and interact with the world - both on a fundamental biological level (eg. women have to deal with periods during their lives, or with the lack thereof being a sign something is wrong), and also on a socially constructed level (sexism).

But gender identities - the concept that you can identify as a body and sex that you don't have/are not - are an example of a mass delusion based in, or in reaction to, sexist beliefs.

Exactly. It’s not a biological fact. It’s a load of sexist bollocks.

Well yes. Religion requires you to believe in an unseen higher being. The genderists require you to to believe in an unseen inner being that may or may not match someone’s sex. What is the difference?

And stop using the word cis. It is offensive to a lot of people on here. Also coined by a pedophile apologist but I assume you know that.

Your identity is what you are. You can not escape what you are. If you identify as a goat then you have a mental health problem not an identity problem.

Pretending you are something you are not because of the expectations of society for you to confirm is not something innate. It's an issue with confidence and self worth. It doesn't change your identity from human to goat. Your identity still remains human.

All this identifying as nonsense is role play and fantasy. Too much larping causes functional problems within the real world. That's not changing your identity. That's abdicating responsibility or potentially behaving in an abusive manner to force others to accommodate your fantasy. It doesn't change anything.

Identifying as is a form of privileged vanity.

It exists within a certain period of time and place for a reason. It's about the politics of privilege and the politics of perceived grievance.

You have a sister with self esteem issues who lives at a time of vanity politics. And there's a bunch of people enabling it. Her identity remains female.

She can not identify out of being female anymore than she can identify as a goat.

Identity politics is a con.

I don't consider "agender" to really be a trans identity, I understand it as "I don't like the question" identity.

In my case, it was probably strengthen by some level of learned misogyny.

And I'm very uncomfortable with the word cis. It is used for binary classification of the "what you make of it for yourself" aspect.
Not identifying yourself with the gender stereotypes is a normal and kind of positive thing. Believing you don't belong to your sex is a problem. The binarization is useless, because people with the stereotypes objections can end up either way, based on their maturity.

And, I don't like calling it a "journey". I don't think my position changed. I just found a different interpretation of the same. And that's the issue with trans - it is all based on individual interpretation of the world.