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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

797 replies

FairHippopotama · 07/04/2026 20:21

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

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selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 22:34

mattala · 07/04/2026 21:52

Identity is arguably informed by experiences. Although how much personality is determined by genetics vs the environment is another debate

What is "identity"?

stapletonsguitar · 07/04/2026 22:36

No. Everyone has a sex and a personality.

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:37

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 22:34

What is "identity"?

Stop it because you could write a sociology PhD on this 😂

Brainworm · 07/04/2026 22:56

Everyone has an identity/ a sense of self. It’s made up of different components and is shaped internally and externally - and changes over time.

For some people, but not all people, gendered ideas inform their identity.

I think it’s a big stretch to say that everyone has a gender identity - or even that anyone does, when it’s conceptualised as something different to a factor that may inform one’s identity.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 23:00

Heggettypeg · 07/04/2026 22:04

But calling it an "identity", and a "gender identity" specifically, suggests a degree of coherence that simply may not be there.
For example: I like to read. I and large numbers of people around the world would not code that as "gendered" in any way. But a teenage boy rebelling against school might code reading as a sissy activity for girls and me as feminine for liking it. And the men who shot Malala Yousafzai might code my desire to read as transgressively masculine. So is a love of reading part of my "gender identity" or not? What and who decides which of my numerous characteristics and preferences are eligible for inclusion in the "gender identity" bundle and which aren't? And since none of that is actually what makes me a woman or not a woman anyway, why carve out a subset of one's personality traits and "identify" with it? It seems an odd sort of proceeding.

the men who shot Malala Yousafzai might code my desire to read as transgressively masculine

In A Handmaid's Tale, men do the reading and women do the breeding. For much of Western history, and in developing countries to this day, girls are less likely to be literate than their brothers and less likely to go to school.

CotswoldsCamilla · 07/04/2026 23:02

I feel like I have a “gender identity” in that I am a woman and I believe my gender identity is female. I believe sex and gender are one and the same and up until about 2018, I used the terms interchangeably

And even if my gender identity didn’t align with my birth sex, it couldn’t change my birth sex because everyone knows you can’t change sex. Don’t they..?
(well, everyone except Isla Bumba, of Scotland. She’s not sure)

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 23:03

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:37

Stop it because you could write a sociology PhD on this 😂

Edited

¿No comprendo?

I am autistic. I don't see the world like other people do. For example, I don't understand "small talk".

I suspect that "identity" is another of those neurotypical concepts that I don't understand. So what is it?

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:03

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:37

Stop it because you could write a sociology PhD on this 😂

Edited

Indeed you could.

Identity, identity, me, me, me.

I genuinely don't have an eye roll big enough for this self-indulgent bollocks.

WappityWabbit · 07/04/2026 23:04

Nothing progressive about misogyny. 🤷🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:06

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 23:03

¿No comprendo?

I am autistic. I don't see the world like other people do. For example, I don't understand "small talk".

I suspect that "identity" is another of those neurotypical concepts that I don't understand. So what is it?

Mate, I'm not autistic and I don't get it either.

mattala · 07/04/2026 23:06

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 23:03

¿No comprendo?

I am autistic. I don't see the world like other people do. For example, I don't understand "small talk".

I suspect that "identity" is another of those neurotypical concepts that I don't understand. So what is it?

Write define identity into google scholar.
you will quickly see what I mean

LeftBoobGoneRogue · 07/04/2026 23:07

No and no.

mattala · 07/04/2026 23:08

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:03

Indeed you could.

Identity, identity, me, me, me.

I genuinely don't have an eye roll big enough for this self-indulgent bollocks.

That’s something else I’d be interested in. Western society is very individualistic. Is this as prevelant in cultures that are more cohesive based (can’t remember the words but some cultures are far more about group cohesion than ours)

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:09

mattala · 07/04/2026 23:06

Write define identity into google scholar.
you will quickly see what I mean

Some stuff written by people who believe bollocks will return what now?

mattala · 07/04/2026 23:11

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:09

Some stuff written by people who believe bollocks will return what now?

People can’t agree on what identity is, how it should be defined, how it is formed. If I wanted to use it in my work I couldn’t just use the Oxford English Dictionary. It has different cultural meanings, different personal meanings, different contextual meanings. I can’t be arsed to define it. To do it properly would need about 1000 words min and you could easily fill a book on it

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:12

mattala · 07/04/2026 23:08

That’s something else I’d be interested in. Western society is very individualistic. Is this as prevelant in cultures that are more cohesive based (can’t remember the words but some cultures are far more about group cohesion than ours)

It is. Hence gender bollocks.

PhD please!

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:15

mattala · 07/04/2026 23:11

People can’t agree on what identity is, how it should be defined, how it is formed. If I wanted to use it in my work I couldn’t just use the Oxford English Dictionary. It has different cultural meanings, different personal meanings, different contextual meanings. I can’t be arsed to define it. To do it properly would need about 1000 words min and you could easily fill a book on it

Almost as if people using the term haven't a clue what they're actually talking about ....

mattala · 07/04/2026 23:15

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:12

It is. Hence gender bollocks.

PhD please!

Well if this is any kind of academic essay the title is problematic in itself and you’d use the entire word count jsut defining your key terms before you even got to the argument 😂😂

Brainworm · 07/04/2026 23:16

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 23:03

¿No comprendo?

I am autistic. I don't see the world like other people do. For example, I don't understand "small talk".

I suspect that "identity" is another of those neurotypical concepts that I don't understand. So what is it?

Identity is simply your own sense of who you are.

For example - you might think of yourself as a serious or a funny person. Someone who hates small talk, or is sporty.

Being a mum, or a Harry Potter fan might form a big part of your identity. You could also be those things but these things not be a big part of how you see yourself.

Perhaps the question ‘describe what makes you you’ might help you think about your identity.

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:25

Brainworm · 07/04/2026 23:16

Identity is simply your own sense of who you are.

For example - you might think of yourself as a serious or a funny person. Someone who hates small talk, or is sporty.

Being a mum, or a Harry Potter fan might form a big part of your identity. You could also be those things but these things not be a big part of how you see yourself.

Perhaps the question ‘describe what makes you you’ might help you think about your identity.

Trouble is, it could be false. Or at the very least shaky.

You might think of yourself as a reliable, loyal friend. Your friends might think, actually you're flakey.

Identity is not a good thing to centre imo. It centres too much personal opinion of oneself as objective truth. Humans are generally not good at being true about their own faults and behaviours.imho.

Thingybob · 07/04/2026 23:29

TwoSwannits · 07/04/2026 22:11

I think that gender largely overlaps with biological sex, almost all of the time. It's an inextricable part of it for the majority of people. It's not a conscious choice we make based on perceived preferences, it's just who we are. To a very, very large degree, one gives rise to the other. However, I do think that gender is a bit of a spectrum and it's not quite as straightforward for everyone as it is for most.

I get that some people completely reject gender as a natural phenomenon, preferring to think that it is purely a social construct, there is absolutely no difference between the male and female brain and that our hormones and chromosomes have no bearing on the gendered character traits we end up with, but I strongly disagree. It's scientifically proven that, in the most general terms, women are better at certain things than men, and vice versa, because we've been bioligically designed to be that way. I'm all for telling kids that there is no such thing as a gendered role, they can do any job or play any sport they like, or play with whatever toys they like, regardless of their sex. But the fact is that, over and over again, it's proven that while children of both sexes will dabble in all sorts of activities to an extent, boys will overwhelmingly end up gravitating towards, and excelling at certain things more readily than girls and vice versa.

The fact that so many more women end up pursuing careers like teaching, nursing, childcare or social work than men, and so many more men gravitate towards the armed forces, engineering, mechanics, physical trades or careers using STEM subjects is not accidental, nor is it purely as a result of social conditioning. Social conditioning only plays a part because we've developed certain expecations based on biology.

I often watch young children playing and interacting and notice a marked difference in the way that most (not all) children of one sex will behave compared to the other. Little boys are, in general, much more physical and fidgety. They will chase one another, playfight, try to trip one another up and find this hilarious, constantly battling for physical dominance over one another in a way that most little girls simply don't. And if they did, it would be perceived not as fun, but as an act of aggression. It would bewilder most girls to be faced with this behaviour constantly from other girls, but for boys it seems par for the course. Boys tend to find their humour in different things as well. Again, it's a massive generalisation, but girls are cats, boys are dogs. I'm sure anyone who is a teacher of primary aged children will have observed this too.

Not all people are going to strongly identify with the all, or even most of the classic gendered traits that match their sex. I suspect that is down to hormone level differences and various other complex factors. Hence why we have always had the stereotypical tomboy, or whatever the male equivalent of that would be called. Although I'm struggling to think of a term that doesn't sound homophobic or pejorative for a boy? Which is funny when you think about it. No-one ever sees the term tomboy for a girl as offensive, or necessarily suggesting she's a lesbian. If anything it has always been said with a hint of admiration and an indulgent eye roll. It describes a robust, no-nonsense girl who is physically bold and brave and doesn't waste time or energy on trying to make herself look pretty for other people. Whereas a boy that displays more stereotypically feminine interests and qualities is often seen as a bit of a weakling and a 'fairy' in old fashioned parlance.

I do get that so much about gender stereroyping is the result of social conditioning, but it's not entirely due to that. The social conditioning didn't come first, the biology did. What we observed over millenia would almost certainly follow in girls and in boys as they grew up, in terms of gendered behaviour, was because it was innate. So the rest was then largely assumed and woe betide anyone who didn't fit the mould.

I don't think that if a girl wants to rough and tumble, play contact sports, reject pink and frills, swagger and 'manspread' like a boy instead of tippy-toeing and twirling like a girl, that it's evidence that she was actually meant to be a boy. By the same token, if a boy wants to sit quietly, learn to crochet, play with dolls, use his mum's make up and shies away from rough and tumble play, it doesn't make him a girl. It simply makes him a boy who is very in touch with his feminine side.

I like to think, in a world where we've finally stopped telling children 'this is how you behave, this is what you should wear, this is what you should be playing with, this is the list of careers suitable for you,' that each child will be encouraged to try out a bit of everything and find for themselves what makes them feel happiest and most comfortable. For the majority that will mean a significant overlap between their sex, their corresponding gender identity and the things most commonly associated with that, for others it will be much less binary and that's fine.

It doesn't mean, however, that they should be encouraged to cut off their tits, wreck their fertility with hormones just so they can grow a wispy beard that fools no-one, or take their penis into women only spaces, simply by putting a skirt over it.

Edited

Well done you've said it better than I can and you've obviously observed lots of babies,toddlers,children through to adulthood like I have. Sadly we are in the minority here but I'm comforted by once hearing Helen Joyce say something similar on a podcast.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 23:30

Brainworm · 07/04/2026 22:56

Everyone has an identity/ a sense of self. It’s made up of different components and is shaped internally and externally - and changes over time.

For some people, but not all people, gendered ideas inform their identity.

I think it’s a big stretch to say that everyone has a gender identity - or even that anyone does, when it’s conceptualised as something different to a factor that may inform one’s identity.

a sense of self

Descartes established that I can know that I exist because I am capable of posing questions about myself and the world. "Cogito ergo sum." I don't think that this knowledge of my own existence is what you mean by "sense of self".

I can infer that other people exist in material reality because they keep doing things that I would not imagine or dream of, even in my worst nightmares. If other people and their deeds were merely my hallucinations, the Holocaust wouldn't have happened.

Given that other people exist, I can accept that the staff of the Adult Autism Service exist. They tell me that I am autistic. Their assertion is supported by my lifetime of completely failing to understand other people's intentions and behaviours, resulting in unpleasant and bewildering interactions with others. This situation is exacerbated by the reality that a lot of people lie a lot, about everything from marital fidelity to whether they like your outfit.

All the above means that I have no reliable way to find out how other people feel about anything, because they might lie and I wouldn't know it, and even if they tell the truth, I might not understand them. I cannot find out how they feel about themselves. I cannot find out whether how they feel about themselves is different from how I feel about myself. And I'm not sure which parts of "how I feel about myself" qualify as "identity" or "sense of self", and which parts don't.

So what is "identity"? What is "sense of self" beyond "I exist"?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 23:33

Brainworm · 07/04/2026 23:16

Identity is simply your own sense of who you are.

For example - you might think of yourself as a serious or a funny person. Someone who hates small talk, or is sporty.

Being a mum, or a Harry Potter fan might form a big part of your identity. You could also be those things but these things not be a big part of how you see yourself.

Perhaps the question ‘describe what makes you you’ might help you think about your identity.

All this stuff is conditioned and culture-bound. It's not innate.

If I stop playing the trumpet and start playing the accordion, does my identity change?

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:36

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 23:30

a sense of self

Descartes established that I can know that I exist because I am capable of posing questions about myself and the world. "Cogito ergo sum." I don't think that this knowledge of my own existence is what you mean by "sense of self".

I can infer that other people exist in material reality because they keep doing things that I would not imagine or dream of, even in my worst nightmares. If other people and their deeds were merely my hallucinations, the Holocaust wouldn't have happened.

Given that other people exist, I can accept that the staff of the Adult Autism Service exist. They tell me that I am autistic. Their assertion is supported by my lifetime of completely failing to understand other people's intentions and behaviours, resulting in unpleasant and bewildering interactions with others. This situation is exacerbated by the reality that a lot of people lie a lot, about everything from marital fidelity to whether they like your outfit.

All the above means that I have no reliable way to find out how other people feel about anything, because they might lie and I wouldn't know it, and even if they tell the truth, I might not understand them. I cannot find out how they feel about themselves. I cannot find out whether how they feel about themselves is different from how I feel about myself. And I'm not sure which parts of "how I feel about myself" qualify as "identity" or "sense of self", and which parts don't.

So what is "identity"? What is "sense of self" beyond "I exist"?

Again, agree.

What is this 'identity' stuff? I think I missed a class... 😬

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 23:38

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 23:25

Trouble is, it could be false. Or at the very least shaky.

You might think of yourself as a reliable, loyal friend. Your friends might think, actually you're flakey.

Identity is not a good thing to centre imo. It centres too much personal opinion of oneself as objective truth. Humans are generally not good at being true about their own faults and behaviours.imho.

You are right, no one can assess themselves. We also can't really assess others. Look at Gisèle Pelicot, she thought she had a loving husband.

Identity is not a good thing to centre imo. It centres too much personal opinion of oneself as objective truth.

This. You can navel-gaze about who you think you are and would like to be, or you can run the vacuum cleaner, practice your scales, write that blues tune, and actually try to live the life you want to have.

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