Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

[FairHippopotama]

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

Agender is absolute bollocks. It's a political position to fit in with the rest of this nonsense.

Just more trying to conform to nonsense.

I feel like you need to read the rest of my posts to understand why all three are linked.
in brief:

Identity is not innate but emerges from the interaction between biology, lived experience, and social expectations. In a patriarchal, capitalist society, people are shaped from birth by narrow norms around gender and the body, and distress can arise when individuals feel they do not meet these expectations. What is often framed as an internal, fixed identity may instead reflect deeply internalised responses to these external pressures, which can then be reinforced and, at times, exploited by wider systems.

this is a developmental psychology view

I think gender identity exists in the same way that other forms of mental health exist, and physical health as well I guess.

Like everyone has a pancreas, the role of which is to produce insulin to regulate blood sugar. Some people have a pancreas that, from a young age, doesn't function properly and they need medication and other interventions to manage that and help them lead as close to a normal life as possible. Not to say that they themselves are abnormal but they do have a condition requiring treatment. For those of us without type 1 diabetes I doubt we pay any attention at all to the functioning of our pancreas.

I see gender identity in much the same way because undoubtedly gender dysphoria is a real condition (though whether even the majority of transgender individuals are truly afflicted by gender dysphoria nowadays I'm not sure). So for gender dysphoria to be a real condition it follows that there must be some innate "gender identity". I do think though that for people who don't have gender dysphoria their gender identity is basically irrelevant, it's not something you think about, it clearly isn't necessary to dress or act in any stereotypical way to appease your gender identity. It's as irrelevant as having a functioning pancreas, important and beneficial for your health but not something that takes up much thought.

That's not to say I think the treatment for gender dysphoria should in any way impinge on other peoples rights, it absolutely shouldn't.

This is my view too. Perfect summary is perfect!

That's not to say I think the treatment for gender dysphoria should in any way impinge on other peoples rights, it absolutely shouldn't.

No. And if Stonewall et al had campaigned from the start for third spaces for transpeople, or for them to be welcome, safe & respected in places for their OWN SEX, things might be very different now.

I don’t think trans people like stonewall any more, or at least they didn’t 10 years ago when I came out because I remember being told they were awful and to avoid on su lgbt nights

I disagree with your view on religion here and think it’s perfectly analogous.

I grew up having religion very much forced on me. It caused a lot of anxiety and I would try and convince myself that God was real, and I was just doing it wrong, but I just couldn’t because logically it didn’t make sense. I think a lot of my god-questioning has exactly informed my gender-questioning for very much the same reasons. It meets none of the tenets of a justified, true belief.

thats a gender stereotype - its not innate its caused by nurture - its a vicous circle

Because identity is formed through the interaction between biology, experience, and social expectations, everyone develops a gender identity simply by existing in a gendered society. From birth, people are interpreted, treated, and shaped according to gendered norms, and over time they internalise these patterns into a sense of self — whether consciously embraced or not. In this view, gender identity isn’t something innate or optional, but an inevitable outcome of living within a social system that constantly organises people by gender.

i agree with that - but thats effectively saying that its social pressure.stereotyping and desire to conform and nothing innate - the worse form of the gender id brigade talk about people having a gendered soul - thats very different.
something that is an identity shouldn't change depending on your environment

I disagree because I disagree with you on what identity is. But as I said I’m a developmental psychologist/marxist feminist

Given that GI popped pretty much out of nowhere, I think it's bollocks. Yes, there have always been a handful of both men and women who prefer to dress/act as the opposite sex, but they all knew what sex they were.

I was a complete tomboy at one stage in my teens, but I always knew I was female. I grew up to marry and have DC, and I'm grateful I grew up when I did, and not now.

Human beings can be very suggestible, especially when immature. Couple a social contagion with teenagers who live online and bingo...

I’m a lesbian & wouldn’t go anywhere near something that called itself LGBT.

Interesting if transpeople don’t like Stonewall any more either. All the LGB people I know view them as a bunch of traitors who sold us out for a new cash cow, so that leaves them a bit stuck.

No. Someone male saying “I’m really a woman - I just know it” is the same as someone saying “There is a god - I just know it”.

It particularly baffles me - properly baffles me - that people who are rightly sceptical about any other “woo” can completely cast aside their rationality when it comes to gender woo.

There’s are a few atheist shows I used to watch and they are without exception all in on gender nonsense.

Even Neil Degrasse Tyson has turned out to be absolutely idiotic on the subject.

pride has been so monetised nobody queer actually went to my city’s last pride on principle

What Red said.

I wouldn’t go anywhere near any event that called itself queer either. Horrible term.

My usual rule of thumb is the more letters in the acronym, the more likely it is to be anti-lesbian.

Why do you use the term “cisgender”? It isn’t a neutral term, it’s in-group jargon.

ah ok ive always used that word to mean someone not straight. It’s used constantly by the community where I am

People who use terms like cisgender, or who say that whether they’re a woman or a man depends on how they feel & present rather than on their biology, are reinforcing tired old gender stereotypes and there’s nothing progressive about that.

When Eddie Izzard used to say “These dresses aren’t women’s clothes, they’re my clothes” I respected him for that. But the idea that someone must be a woman because they like nail polish & heels is just stupid.

I dont think they are 'casting aside their rationality' , more a case of knowingly parking it to one side as qualification to be in the cool gang following the latest fad. These very same people will be the ones ten years down the line claiming thst they were always sceptical and about gender woo despite them being the more then willing gastapo.

Quite, @EmpressaurusKitty

Does your community think transwomen are women & that males can be lesbians? That’s my experience of ‘queer’.

Identity is mutable and relational - it exists largely in reponse to circumstances and context. It encompasses the profound (I am a mother) and the trivial (I am a chess player).

It can be useful and important on many levels, and people go to war over it sometimes.

But 'how one sees oneself in the world and feels about oneself in relation to the rest of the world' is far too porous, confusable and subjective to organise society on and classify people by.

For that we need broad, simple, clear categories - man/woman being one of the most straightforward up until five minutes ago. That's usually easy to implement and checkable and often essential.

It is a conversation nobody wants to have becuase self id benefits them but equally a lot of women want women only spaces. It’s hard. I know lots of trans people they’re all lovely and don’t talk about this.
I feel like patriarchy exists and this is a response but until we change the system how do we help people who suffer because of it?
im annoyingly on the fence