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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

797 replies

FairHippopotama · 07/04/2026 20:21

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

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mattala · 07/04/2026 22:10

OldCrone · 07/04/2026 22:08

So doesn't this mean that your sex identity also exists and you can't opt out of it by claiming to have an opposite sex 'gender identity'?

If a man can have a woman gender identity, why can't a white person have a black racial identity?

You can’t opt out of anything, that’s my point. It works both ways. Identifies are not formed in isolation.

abracadabra1980 · 07/04/2026 22:10

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 07/04/2026 20:23

No, it's a load of bollocks that has been entirely invented by academia.

This. Agree 100%

popery · 07/04/2026 22:11

I admit I've only skimmed mattala's posts but I wonder if they're trying to say something along the lines of:

The world is sexist.
It imposes expectations and demands on us all because of our sex. For a great deal of people that won't be an accurate expectation because our selves are not like those stereotypes. For some, perhaps they are comfortable with those expectations or having them as a sort of guide.
For some maybe they feel the stereotypes of the opposite sex would be preferable so instead of trying to fight the stereotypes they choose different ones.

TwoSwannits · 07/04/2026 22:11

I think that gender largely overlaps with biological sex, almost all of the time. It's an inextricable part of it for the majority of people. It's not a conscious choice we make based on perceived preferences, it's just who we are. To a very, very large degree, one gives rise to the other. However, I do think that gender is a bit of a spectrum and it's not quite as straightforward for everyone as it is for most.

I get that some people completely reject gender as a natural phenomenon, preferring to think that it is purely a social construct, there is absolutely no difference between the male and female brain and that our hormones and chromosomes have no bearing on the gendered character traits we end up with, but I strongly disagree. It's scientifically proven that, in the most general terms, women are better at certain things than men, and vice versa, because we've been bioligically designed to be that way. I'm all for telling kids that there is no such thing as a gendered role, they can do any job or play any sport they like, or play with whatever toys they like, regardless of their sex. But the fact is that, over and over again, it's proven that while children of both sexes will dabble in all sorts of activities to an extent, boys will overwhelmingly end up gravitating towards, and excelling at certain things more readily than girls and vice versa.

The fact that so many more women end up pursuing careers like teaching, nursing, childcare or social work than men, and so many more men gravitate towards the armed forces, engineering, mechanics, physical trades or careers using STEM subjects is not accidental, nor is it purely as a result of social conditioning. Social conditioning only plays a part because we've developed certain expecations based on biology.

I often watch young children playing and interacting and notice a marked difference in the way that most (not all) children of one sex will behave compared to the other. Little boys are, in general, much more physical and fidgety. They will chase one another, playfight, try to trip one another up and find this hilarious, constantly battling for physical dominance over one another in a way that most little girls simply don't. And if they did, it would be perceived not as fun, but as an act of aggression. It would bewilder most girls to be faced with this behaviour constantly from other girls, but for boys it seems par for the course. Boys tend to find their humour in different things as well. Again, it's a massive generalisation, but girls are cats, boys are dogs. I'm sure anyone who is a teacher of primary aged children will have observed this too.

Not all people are going to strongly identify with the all, or even most of the classic gendered traits that match their sex. I suspect that is down to hormone level differences and various other complex factors. Hence why we have always had the stereotypical tomboy, or whatever the male equivalent of that would be called. Although I'm struggling to think of a term that doesn't sound homophobic or pejorative for a boy? Which is funny when you think about it. No-one ever sees the term tomboy for a girl as offensive, or necessarily suggesting she's a lesbian. If anything it has always been said with a hint of admiration and an indulgent eye roll. It describes a robust, no-nonsense girl who is physically bold and brave and doesn't waste time or energy on trying to make herself look pretty for other people. Whereas a boy that displays more stereotypically feminine interests and qualities is often seen as a bit of a weakling and a 'fairy' in old fashioned parlance.

I do get that so much about gender stereroyping is the result of social conditioning, but it's not entirely due to that. The social conditioning didn't come first, the biology did. What we observed over millenia would almost certainly follow in girls and in boys as they grew up, in terms of gendered behaviour, was because it was innate. So the rest was then largely assumed and woe betide anyone who didn't fit the mould.

I don't think that if a girl wants to rough and tumble, play contact sports, reject pink and frills, swagger and 'manspread' like a boy instead of tippy-toeing and twirling like a girl, that it's evidence that she was actually meant to be a boy. By the same token, if a boy wants to sit quietly, learn to crochet, play with dolls, use his mum's make up and shies away from rough and tumble play, it doesn't make him a girl. It simply makes him a boy who is very in touch with his feminine side.

I like to think, in a world where we've finally stopped telling children 'this is how you behave, this is what you should wear, this is what you should be playing with, this is the list of careers suitable for you,' that each child will be encouraged to try out a bit of everything and find for themselves what makes them feel happiest and most comfortable. For the majority that will mean a significant overlap between their sex, their corresponding gender identity and the things most commonly associated with that, for others it will be much less binary and that's fine.

It doesn't mean, however, that they should be encouraged to cut off their tits, wreck their fertility with hormones just so they can grow a wispy beard that fools no-one, or take their penis into women only spaces, simply by putting a skirt over it.

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:11

spannasaurus · 07/04/2026 22:09

I have one identity - me

And yet your kids would see you as a mother. Your partner as a spouse. Your clients as whatever your job role is. People who dislike you would identify you as whatever insult they felt appropriate. And you have 0 control over that.

OldCrone · 07/04/2026 22:11

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:10

You can’t opt out of anything, that’s my point. It works both ways. Identifies are not formed in isolation.

So are you now saying you don't believe that people can select their own gender identity?

What do you think a gender identity is? You didn't reply to my post asking you that earlier.

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:12

OldCrone · 07/04/2026 22:11

So are you now saying you don't believe that people can select their own gender identity?

What do you think a gender identity is? You didn't reply to my post asking you that earlier.

I think a gender identity is a highly personal, socially constructed way one defines themselves in relation to patriarchal standards.

OldCrone · 07/04/2026 22:14

popery · 07/04/2026 22:11

I admit I've only skimmed mattala's posts but I wonder if they're trying to say something along the lines of:

The world is sexist.
It imposes expectations and demands on us all because of our sex. For a great deal of people that won't be an accurate expectation because our selves are not like those stereotypes. For some, perhaps they are comfortable with those expectations or having them as a sort of guide.
For some maybe they feel the stereotypes of the opposite sex would be preferable so instead of trying to fight the stereotypes they choose different ones.

Possibly. So perhaps @mattala is just saying that gender identities are just labels people put on themselves because of stereotypes. Is that right @mattala?

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:14

OldCrone · 07/04/2026 22:14

Possibly. So perhaps @mattala is just saying that gender identities are just labels people put on themselves because of stereotypes. Is that right @mattala?

Yes thank you. Maybe I’m not being clear

Dymaxion · 07/04/2026 22:15

I think people are people, each an individual, if Bob decides to call himself Kate, I am fine with that, if he decides he wants to wear a dress, also fine.
If he wants me to pretend he was born a woman, nope !
Because he wasn't and isn't.
And it matters a lot to those of us who were born women, in so many ways that Bob couldn't even begin to understand.
Because he was born male and still is.
And its fine to be a man who has a feminine name and wears a dress.

Hoardasurass · 07/04/2026 22:16

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 07/04/2026 21:52

Oh wow. That's worse, far worse, than I was already aware of.

Last time I looked, little boys weren't coerced into molesting their sisters to train them to be female. Disregarding any iatrogenic injury, that is child abuse.

Yep thats why I called it child abuse.
There's a really sad documentary about it called i am David made not long before he killed himself. In it he talks about what happened to him and his brother, he also talks about how his parents were convinced by money and co to go along with his "experiments".
Be warned its a hard watch especially when you know money wrote books about what he did and was lauded for it at the time.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 07/04/2026 22:17

And it's fine to be a man who has a feminine name and wears a dress

As long as he doesn't use facilities which exist solely for the comfort and dignity of biological women.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 07/04/2026 22:17

And it's fine to be a man who has a feminine name and wears a dress

As long as he doesn't use facilities which exist solely for the comfort and dignity of biological women.

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 22:18

abracadabra1980 · 07/04/2026 22:10

This. Agree 100%

Also agree.

It only needs one charismatic academic with a broad reach to influence whole swathes of other academics and masses of students.

It doesn't even need to have a bad intention. One popular academic, perceived as trans, has a huge ripple effect.

I'm sure this is has happened, as I have seen it happen.

OldCrone · 07/04/2026 22:20

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:14

Yes thank you. Maybe I’m not being clear

I don't think that's how most people who claim to believe in gender identity would define it.

Something based on stereotypes in a specific culture is hardly something that could be described as unchangeable and innate.

spannasaurus · 07/04/2026 22:20

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:11

And yet your kids would see you as a mother. Your partner as a spouse. Your clients as whatever your job role is. People who dislike you would identify you as whatever insult they felt appropriate. And you have 0 control over that.

Edited

How other people perceive me is not my identity.

popery · 07/04/2026 22:22

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:11

And yet your kids would see you as a mother. Your partner as a spouse. Your clients as whatever your job role is. People who dislike you would identify you as whatever insult they felt appropriate. And you have 0 control over that.

Edited

But those have clear definitions. Things that make you an accountant or a spouse.

There is no definition in "gender identity" terms of what makes someone a woman, a man, neither, etc. That's why it's an entirely separate level from these other things because no-one is clear on what they mean by it.

Some people think that gender id is to do with body parts; others think it's to do with feminine or masculine character traits (which themselves are contradictory and changeable)! We don't know, because believers in GI won't even give one example of something that makes someone a man and not a woman, or vice versa.

BettyBooper · 07/04/2026 22:23

Dymaxion · 07/04/2026 22:15

I think people are people, each an individual, if Bob decides to call himself Kate, I am fine with that, if he decides he wants to wear a dress, also fine.
If he wants me to pretend he was born a woman, nope !
Because he wasn't and isn't.
And it matters a lot to those of us who were born women, in so many ways that Bob couldn't even begin to understand.
Because he was born male and still is.
And its fine to be a man who has a feminine name and wears a dress.

You assume that it's fine for a man to give himself a feminine name and wear a dress.

Do you question why he is wearing the dress?

It is not that wearing a dress is inherently wrong, but to assume it's also inherently not a risk factor is naive.

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:24

OldCrone · 07/04/2026 22:20

I don't think that's how most people who claim to believe in gender identity would define it.

Something based on stereotypes in a specific culture is hardly something that could be described as unchangeable and innate.

That’s what I mean. I don’t think these people understand what gender was initially meant to mean. It’s a social construct. It therefore cannot be innate becuase it’s formed by society.
this is me being pedantic though

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:25

popery · 07/04/2026 22:22

But those have clear definitions. Things that make you an accountant or a spouse.

There is no definition in "gender identity" terms of what makes someone a woman, a man, neither, etc. That's why it's an entirely separate level from these other things because no-one is clear on what they mean by it.

Some people think that gender id is to do with body parts; others think it's to do with feminine or masculine character traits (which themselves are contradictory and changeable)! We don't know, because believers in GI won't even give one example of something that makes someone a man and not a woman, or vice versa.

How people treat you can impact your self esteem, which impacts how you see yourself and therefore your identity.

Heggettypeg · 07/04/2026 22:26

mattala · 07/04/2026 22:06

I just don’t know but I find it hard to believe how you define and relate to yourself happens in a vacuum. Everyone has lots of identities - racial, job, gender, etc. I might not think about my race often as a white woman but my racial identity exists and I can’t opt out of that while racism exists

I agree that it doesn't happen in a vacuum, and that we all have an ongoing (and dynamic) relationship with gendered expectations from others, and gendered attitudes we have internalised. But I also feel that with the emphasis on "identity", there is a kind of reification going on, as if it's a "thing" that you "have" this one of, rather than that one of, separate from one's sex.

KnottyAuty · 07/04/2026 22:27

In progressive circles, It’s rude to be a plopped

DrBlackbird · 07/04/2026 22:28

PinsAndThrums · 07/04/2026 21:47

@FairHippopotama Why should I help you write your essay or provide you with data for some half-baked research project?

They’re certainly not prolific on MN.

Greymatterwriter · 07/04/2026 22:31

No I don’t believe in gender identity. I believe in sex and personality. I believe gender incongruity comes from a number of different “issues” of personality and it is complex. I don’t think the answer to this to go along with trans gender ideology.

GarlicFind · 07/04/2026 22:33

Nope.

I'll make a teeny, tiny caveat for the possibility of a rare brain abnormality that makes it impossible for people to correctly understand their own body plan. There are such things, and I remember a small study of the brains of 'transgender' people found some similarities with sufferers of BIID. It was the only trans-specific abnormality they found, and nobody was pleased because what they wanted to find was that some men have female brains 🙄

Anyway. If people can have brains that think they shouldn't have legs, or should have a tail, I guess there are brains that think they should/shouldn't have a penis.

That isn't gender identity, though. I actually think all the 21st-century identity worship is utter bullshit, and genderised identity is an extra-large pile of super steaming bull elephant shit.