Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

[FairHippopotama]

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

Those things don't define the person's gender. They define your (you as the observer's) personal perception of their sex, which might be correct or incorrect.

I'm literally in France and spent the last two days round WW1 graveyards.

Would you like to see my photos?

This morning we looked around a German graveyard with over 4400 German bodies in it, next to the British graveyard with over a thousand.

Yesterday I bought a cool new dress.

Would you like to be more sexist if you tried?

No, many people assume those things regardless. You might know exceptions to the steretypes, and that makes sense - I'm not saying the stereotypes are all true, and I don't see why anyone would believe that. I'm saying that people use the stereotypes. And the effect of the stereotypes is apparent: just look at the ratios of women who are Conservative MPs, or who are in the Armed Forces.

No, no they don’t. As I said, only sexist misogynists. And maybe men in their 80s.

Sorry but that comment about military history has really fucking boiled my piss today given what I'm doing.

People who are opposed to feminism? Who disagree with anything feminist? That's like saying you can't discuss gender because you're gender-critical. What?

None of the stereotypes are "true" in the sense that they apply to all people of one category or the other. The specific split by sex is culturally, socially and historically dependant. Which demonstrates clearly that those concepts have fuck all to do with the person's sex.

And what is gender defined as??

The reason we discuss gender is because we are critical of the concept and what it means for feminism. This is the feminist board, not the feminist critical board 🙄

Did you think it was some sort of MRA board OP?

A social system that constantly organises people by gender.

Assuming that here you are using 'gender' to mean not sex but societal expectations, this is precisely where the problem I have with 'gender identity' originates. Society, or to more more accurate, two parts of society (the 'progressive left' and the 'conservative right') give the concept of gender far more significance than it warrants.

Our personalities are all made up of many factors, and centring one of these excessively is unhealthy. In the case of 'gender identity', it can lead to various unhealthy outcome, including estrangement from family, the disruption of endocrine system, and cosmetic surgery; these can in some cases cause further psychiatric and medical problems, and are leading to societal division and mental health problems for some of those around the trans-identifying person.

The 'gender identity' part of personality is far from the only one that can be problematic when it becomes too central. It perhaps explains, though, the noticeable correlation between autism and trans identification. When it is promoted consistently and ubiquitously, it can outcompete other interests and models for understanding one's place in society, and is attractive to those who feel that they are misfits. Once entrenched as the defining issue of a person's identity, anything pushing for another worldview is easily framed as 'hate'.

Bur why would they come onto a predominately female based forum (again, the clue is in the name) and then have a whole board dedicated to hating feminism. Did you not look at any of the threads before you posted? Like, do some research, get the feel of the boards, check out threads? No? Just post and make yourself look silly. #sadtimes

Apparently so. 😂😂😂😂😂

What gender is defined as, if we are not taking it to be the "polite" synonym for a person's sex, is the set of externally applied expectations, rules, requirements and so on for a person's behaviour that have arisen due to the sex category they belong to. That's culturally, socially, historically variable and mutable.

www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/improving-care/better-mh-policy/position-statements/ps02_18.pdf

www.socialworkers.org/Practice/LGBTQIA/Sexual-Orientation-and-Gender-Diversity

https://www.tgender.net/taw/ama_resolutions.pdf

You can easily find more if you want to.

Those are not medical proofs, are they. They’re just assertions based on a biased worldview.

What are your thoughts on this recent study? https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5513703-finnish-study-on-transition-and-psychiatric-outcomes-in-sex-and-gender-shows-increased-psychiatric-morbidity?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

I think it makes a lot of sense. Lots of people who identify as trans felt compelled to do so not out of genuine dysphoria, but out of other issues that are reflected in the increased psychriatric morbidity even before treatment. As transitioning won't actually solve these people's problems, only ever appearing to by acting as a convenient narrative, it makes sense that morbidity generally increases as a result of transitioning.

@FairHippopotama

I have long hair
I have an engineering degree
I like science
I was an army cadet
I like watching military shows
I mainly wear trousers

Am I a man or a woman?

Where is the peer reviewed study proving that “genuine” gender dysphoria can be treated by “transitioning”?

Given solely that information and asked to determine your gender, most people would assume that you are a man. But when I was referring to reading, I was talking about subconscious assumptions, the assumptions that even the most diehard of gender abolitionists and feminists make. That doesn't make them sexist though; it reflects society.

The more of these 'middle ground' threads I read the more I notice those suggesting it have some of the most sexist views I've come across.

The families I know with trans people in them also seem to have some of the most sexist attitudes too.

Given I know the history of several of these families very very well including my own I do think these sexist attitudes are very much part of the issue driving problems.

Noting that the OP is one of these families too.

The first link I provided, the one to a resolution of the American Medical Association, clearly cites several (peer-reviewed) studies as part of footnote 7.

It uses footnote 7 in making the claims that '[a]n established body of medical research demonstrates the effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery as forms of therapeutic treatment for many people diagnosed with GID' and that '[h]ealth experts in GID, including WPATH, have rejected the myth that such treatments are “cosmetic” or “experimental” and have recognized that these treatments can provide safe and effective treatment for a serious health condition'.

Footnote 7 lists the following among others. 'Brown G R: A review of clinical approaches to gender dysphoria. J Clin Psychiatry. 51(2):57-64, 1990. Newfield E, Hart S, Dibble S, Kohler L. Female-to-male transgender quality of life. Qual Life Res. 15(9):1447-57, 2006. Best L, and Stein K. (1998) “Surgical gender reassignment for male to female transsexual people.”'

And that's why I reject gender as it based on outdated sex stereotypes.

It's not an unconscious assumption that makes people assume I'm male based on what I listed it's a very conscious adherence to stereotypes.