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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

797 replies

FairHippopotama · 07/04/2026 20:21

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

OP posts:
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10
Shedmistress · 09/04/2026 13:57

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 13:52

The first link I provided, the one to a resolution of the American Medical Association, clearly cites several (peer-reviewed) studies as part of footnote 7.

It uses footnote 7 in making the claims that '[a]n established body of medical research demonstrates the effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery as forms of therapeutic treatment for many people diagnosed with GID' and that '[h]ealth experts in GID, including WPATH, have rejected the myth that such treatments are “cosmetic” or “experimental” and have recognized that these treatments can provide safe and effective treatment for a serious health condition'.

Footnote 7 lists the following among others. 'Brown G R: A review of clinical approaches to gender dysphoria. J Clin Psychiatry. 51(2):57-64, 1990. Newfield E, Hart S, Dibble S, Kohler L. Female-to-male transgender quality of life. Qual Life Res. 15(9):1447-57, 2006. Best L, and Stein K. (1998) “Surgical gender reassignment for male to female transsexual people.”'

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Are you aware of who WPATH are?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/04/2026 13:58

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 13:52

The first link I provided, the one to a resolution of the American Medical Association, clearly cites several (peer-reviewed) studies as part of footnote 7.

It uses footnote 7 in making the claims that '[a]n established body of medical research demonstrates the effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery as forms of therapeutic treatment for many people diagnosed with GID' and that '[h]ealth experts in GID, including WPATH, have rejected the myth that such treatments are “cosmetic” or “experimental” and have recognized that these treatments can provide safe and effective treatment for a serious health condition'.

Footnote 7 lists the following among others. 'Brown G R: A review of clinical approaches to gender dysphoria. J Clin Psychiatry. 51(2):57-64, 1990. Newfield E, Hart S, Dibble S, Kohler L. Female-to-male transgender quality of life. Qual Life Res. 15(9):1447-57, 2006. Best L, and Stein K. (1998) “Surgical gender reassignment for male to female transsexual people.”'

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Are you aware of the history of WPATH? Link the papers here so we can all look at them rather than rely on biased assertions.

RedToothBrush · 09/04/2026 13:59

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 13:54

And that's why I reject gender as it based on outdated sex stereotypes.

It's not an unconscious assumption that makes people assume I'm male based on what I listed it's a very conscious adherence to stereotypes.

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Yep.

It's trying to reimpose stereotypes we thought we'd got rid of.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/04/2026 14:00

If you are claiming “proof” you need to be able to explain exactly how your evidence “proves” your claim.

ArabellaScott · 09/04/2026 14:02

A few years ago, NHS Scotland referred to WPATH's latest standards of care. They then had to report themselves to Police Scotland because those 'Standards of Care' include links and references to the Eunuch Archive, which includes extenaive CSA material.

Why this incident didnt end the NHS' involvement with them is quite puzzling.

popery · 09/04/2026 14:03

I'm sorry that I used 'cisgender', but I was using it to mean people who identify with the gender corresponding to their sex. All that really means is that you're comfortable being described as a woman (given the expectations, roles, and norms surrounding women).

Sorry to go back several hundred posts but I'm catching up.

@FairHippopotama I really don't think you have understood the issue if you can say this. Not in a rude way! I just don't think you see it like I do.

I'm ONLY comfortable being described as a woman IF it's being used to mean "female ".

If it is being used to mean something else then I'd need to know what before I could say whether I'm comfortable or not.

Do you get what I mean?

I'm not at all comfortable being expected to be maternal or dainty or diplomatic or illogical or whatever expectations you mean - not at all.

So when you say I'm cis, meaning this, you are incorrect.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/04/2026 14:04

ArabellaScott · 09/04/2026 14:02

A few years ago, NHS Scotland referred to WPATH's latest standards of care. They then had to report themselves to Police Scotland because those 'Standards of Care' include links and references to the Eunuch Archive, which includes extenaive CSA material.

Why this incident didnt end the NHS' involvement with them is quite puzzling.

Quite. I wonder if OP is aware of this?

Original poster
FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:07

RedToothBrush · 09/04/2026 13:49

The more of these 'middle ground' threads I read the more I notice those suggesting it have some of the most sexist views I've come across.

The families I know with trans people in them also seem to have some of the most sexist attitudes too.

Given I know the history of several of these families very very well including my own I do think these sexist attitudes are very much part of the issue driving problems.

Noting that the OP is one of these families too.

How am I sexist? This reaction is infuriating because feminists and gender-critical activists, the users on this post, definitely understand what internalised misogyny and sexism are. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I'm not saying that only men are interested in military history; I'm not saying that only women have long hair. I'm not saying that people are trans if they go against these stereotypes. I'm arguing that society holds these norms to be true, or otherwise uses them to determine someone's gender.

You can't reasonably describe my family as sexist either. My father is a baby boomer like many of you, and while he has definitely internalised a lot of sexism, neither my sisters nor my mother see him as sexist. My mother definitely isn't sexist - she grew up in the North in the 60s and has worked hard against the barriers of sexism throughout her life, both in her youth as well as in her legal career in the 80s and 90s. She has taught me well; I don't think I'm sexist either.

Maybe your family is like that, maybe sexism played a role in your family having trans people in it, but I really doubt it did for mine.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/04/2026 14:08

Yes, men are definitely the best judges of whether they are sexist towards women or not.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/04/2026 14:09

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2026 11:43

Things are either mixed sex or single sex.

'Mixed gender' - in practise that would be mixed sex.(so everyone, meaningless as a classification category)
'Single gender' - meaningless. Gender is infinite and limitless and mutable so we cant use it as a classification category

Edited

This led me to think again about the transactivists' demand for us to see sex as a spectrum rather than a binary. The spectrum we are most familiar with is the visible part of the electromagnetic spectrum. This is the basis of our colour classifications. We all have a concept of what blue looks like, and likewise green. But we may not agree that a particular colour is blue; you may see it as green; or we could say it is turquoise, or aquamarine.

The various invented 'genders' are fairly analogous to colours, though notably I haven't seen any attempt to order them into a coherent sequence (other than alphabetic order of name) whereas colours can be systematised in two dimensions, which enables inclusion of colours not featuring in a rainbow. Could 'gender' (as in stereotypes) even be classified in two dimensions, let alone in one dimension from Barbie to G I Joe (no thanks to Mermaids!)?

But sex is very clearly a different kind of category, with the two sexes which very clearly encompass virtually the whole human population (as well as vast numbers of other species). To see sex as a spectrum is to blur boundaries, to make categorisation subjective not empirical.

spannasaurus · 09/04/2026 14:09

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:07

How am I sexist? This reaction is infuriating because feminists and gender-critical activists, the users on this post, definitely understand what internalised misogyny and sexism are. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I'm not saying that only men are interested in military history; I'm not saying that only women have long hair. I'm not saying that people are trans if they go against these stereotypes. I'm arguing that society holds these norms to be true, or otherwise uses them to determine someone's gender.

You can't reasonably describe my family as sexist either. My father is a baby boomer like many of you, and while he has definitely internalised a lot of sexism, neither my sisters nor my mother see him as sexist. My mother definitely isn't sexist - she grew up in the North in the 60s and has worked hard against the barriers of sexism throughout her life, both in her youth as well as in her legal career in the 80s and 90s. She has taught me well; I don't think I'm sexist either.

Maybe your family is like that, maybe sexism played a role in your family having trans people in it, but I really doubt it did for mine.

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Believing that all the things I listed make me more likely to be a man is sexist

popery · 09/04/2026 14:09

So OP

If you see a female person who doesn't adhere to woman gender stereotypes, do you, personally, conclude that in this case:
The stereotypes are wrong and don't apply to everyone in that sex class
Or
The sex of that person's body is wrong?

Can you articulate what would lead to you conclude one instead of the other?

Original poster
FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:12

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/04/2026 14:08

Yes, men are definitely the best judges of whether they are sexist towards women or not.

Well, I'm not my family - I'm not going to claim I know their exact opinions of me. If I had said 'my mother doesn't think I'm sexist' you would just say that she could hide her true opinion from me. What you are asking for is some impossible standard. You are essentially trying to catch me out with a 'gotcha' argument.

OP posts:
mattala · 09/04/2026 14:15

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:07

How am I sexist? This reaction is infuriating because feminists and gender-critical activists, the users on this post, definitely understand what internalised misogyny and sexism are. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I'm not saying that only men are interested in military history; I'm not saying that only women have long hair. I'm not saying that people are trans if they go against these stereotypes. I'm arguing that society holds these norms to be true, or otherwise uses them to determine someone's gender.

You can't reasonably describe my family as sexist either. My father is a baby boomer like many of you, and while he has definitely internalised a lot of sexism, neither my sisters nor my mother see him as sexist. My mother definitely isn't sexist - she grew up in the North in the 60s and has worked hard against the barriers of sexism throughout her life, both in her youth as well as in her legal career in the 80s and 90s. She has taught me well; I don't think I'm sexist either.

Maybe your family is like that, maybe sexism played a role in your family having trans people in it, but I really doubt it did for mine.

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mate as a man with multiple women telling him he’s being sexist… you’re being sexist. And it’s becuase you’re placing your comfort above the needs of a group. It’s male entitlement at its finest. They asked you not to use a term that offends them in their territory and you went no sorry as man blah blah blah and then got shocked people called you sexist?

i basically answered your question for you and gave you an essay plan. I regret this now

Original poster
FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:18

popery · 09/04/2026 14:09

So OP

If you see a female person who doesn't adhere to woman gender stereotypes, do you, personally, conclude that in this case:
The stereotypes are wrong and don't apply to everyone in that sex class
Or
The sex of that person's body is wrong?

Can you articulate what would lead to you conclude one instead of the other?

'If I see a female' - I thought that's what we were talking about determining?

When you see a female, you use stereotypes to make that determination. I'm not just talking about social stereotypes as well, biological stereotypes also count. Earlier, I mentioned height. There's also how sharp someone's jawline is, the contour of their eyes, the shape of their lips, the prominence of the cartilage on their voice box. Men are thought to be taller, have sharper jaws, have sharper contours, have thinner lips, and have more prominent cartilages. Women are thought to be shorter, have softer jaws, have softer contours, have wider lips, and have less prominent cartilages. These may be generally true or not. Regardless, they are societal norms and expectations that you use in your determination of whether someone is male or female.

OP posts:
Shedmistress · 09/04/2026 14:19

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:18

'If I see a female' - I thought that's what we were talking about determining?

When you see a female, you use stereotypes to make that determination. I'm not just talking about social stereotypes as well, biological stereotypes also count. Earlier, I mentioned height. There's also how sharp someone's jawline is, the contour of their eyes, the shape of their lips, the prominence of the cartilage on their voice box. Men are thought to be taller, have sharper jaws, have sharper contours, have thinner lips, and have more prominent cartilages. Women are thought to be shorter, have softer jaws, have softer contours, have wider lips, and have less prominent cartilages. These may be generally true or not. Regardless, they are societal norms and expectations that you use in your determination of whether someone is male or female.

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You think the actual physicalities of males and females are 'social norms and expectations'?

popery · 09/04/2026 14:21

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:18

'If I see a female' - I thought that's what we were talking about determining?

When you see a female, you use stereotypes to make that determination. I'm not just talking about social stereotypes as well, biological stereotypes also count. Earlier, I mentioned height. There's also how sharp someone's jawline is, the contour of their eyes, the shape of their lips, the prominence of the cartilage on their voice box. Men are thought to be taller, have sharper jaws, have sharper contours, have thinner lips, and have more prominent cartilages. Women are thought to be shorter, have softer jaws, have softer contours, have wider lips, and have less prominent cartilages. These may be generally true or not. Regardless, they are societal norms and expectations that you use in your determination of whether someone is male or female.

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Ok. I'll rephrase.
A person you know to be biologically female, or who tells you they are. Not someone you're trying to guess the sex of by your own criteria because you don't know.

Let's say it's me.
Can you answer the two questions I asked?

Original poster
FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:21

mattala · 09/04/2026 14:15

mate as a man with multiple women telling him he’s being sexist… you’re being sexist. And it’s becuase you’re placing your comfort above the needs of a group. It’s male entitlement at its finest. They asked you not to use a term that offends them in their territory and you went no sorry as man blah blah blah and then got shocked people called you sexist?

i basically answered your question for you and gave you an essay plan. I regret this now

Show quote history

It's ironic, but I disagree with this too. I think I am being accused of sexism because some people misunderstand my argument. It's also not my comfort - if you notice, I have actually tried to use the language that some of you were recommending ('trans-identifying' and the like). I was wrong earlier to say that I would continue to use 'cis' - I didn't realise the magnitude of the offence it caused and how much it would derail this into ad hominem.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 09/04/2026 14:22

How am I sexist?

There are many many examples on this thread.

I am not going to waste my time listing them.

In part because I'm on holiday... Y'know doing my hobby which is WW1 military history.

popery · 09/04/2026 14:22

Hang on... Is this the guy with the Magical Marvellous Sex-Determining Algorithm from a while ago? I'm see if I can find the threads.

(This was a specific poster, so if it's not you OP this won't make any sense)

Original poster
FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:23

Shedmistress · 09/04/2026 14:19

You think the actual physicalities of males and females are 'social norms and expectations'?

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Let me put it this way. On average, men are stronger than women. It's a biological truth. That doesn't mean all men are stronger than all women. It does not mean every person who is strong is a man.

OP posts:
popery · 09/04/2026 14:25

FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:23

Let me put it this way. On average, men are stronger than women. It's a biological truth. That doesn't mean all men are stronger than all women. It does not mean every person who is strong is a man.

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So what use is it, in determining one person's sex, to know how strong they are?

What use is that generalising of the whole sex class when it comes to one person's sex or gender? You seem very muddled about this.

Wearenotborg · 09/04/2026 14:29

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/04/2026 14:00

If you are claiming “proof” you need to be able to explain exactly how your evidence “proves” your claim.

OP is gonna struggle so much at uni.

popery · 09/04/2026 14:29

It was a guy called howse who kept trying to explain why his Marvelous Magical Sometimes-Correct Biology Diviner was a great way to work out who is 'really' a man or a woman (but it was all about gender stereotypes)
Is this the OP? Sounds a bit younger perhaps.

Original poster
FairHippopotama · 09/04/2026 14:30

popery · 09/04/2026 14:21

Ok. I'll rephrase.
A person you know to be biologically female, or who tells you they are. Not someone you're trying to guess the sex of by your own criteria because you don't know.

Let's say it's me.
Can you answer the two questions I asked?

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My conclusion would be closest to the first option. I would conclude that not all gender stereotypes apply in every case. I already know this to be the case, however. Military history is a masculine interest yet we have RedToothBrush who's interested in military history; men are seen as stronger than women, but I'm definitely much weaker than Donna Moore.

I would never make the second conclusion if I already know that this person is female.

OP posts: