Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

[FairHippopotama]

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

I didn't say that transitioning was the best treatment in all cases. I think many people who identify as trans at the moment would be better served with therapy because their gender dysphoria comes from societal pressures and mental conditions rather than neurological gender dysphoria in and of itself.

The gender-affirming movement doesn't claim you can change sex. They claim that gender is different and you can change sex. That's why the term used is 'transgender' and no longer 'transsexual'.

So gender = stereotypes?

In that case, I don't really understand why there is any debate at all. Being a man or woman is very clearly a matter of sex, not stereotype.

Gender-affirming people would presumably say that men and women are those who identify as such, who are associated by society with the stereotypes around one sex or the other.

There are two parts to this argument. Firstly, the notion that men and women are simply those who identify as such. I find this to be a very weak argument. I can't just decide that I identify as a cat or a dinosaur or an astronaut and therefore make that reality. "Identifying as" something doesn't really have any meaning, other than "wanting to play make-believe" about something.

The second part of your argument is that men and women are those who are associated by society with the stereotypes around one sex or another. But I don't think "society" considers people to be men or women simply because they adopt some of the stereotypes traditionally associated with the one sex or another. If you introduce a young child to a man dressed in women's clothes, they won't think it is a woman, they will likely ask why that man is dressed as a woman. If a woman chooses to have short hair and play football, society will typically see her as a woman who has short hair and likes football.

Yes, it is true that in recent times, society has forced many people to go along with the pretence of calling people men or women even when we all instinctively know that they are not, primarily because of the exhortation to "be kind". But most of us do actually know that trans people are not what they are claiming to be, as is often demonstrated by the accidental misgendering that is often committed by even the most loyal of trans advocates - occasionally, people forget, and their instinctive recognition of the biological reality of sex cuts through.

Many do claim that they have changed sex.

I agree. I think there should less immediate validation by medical professionals and more questioning to see if there's not a deeper reason (like sexual interests, AGP as you imply).

Why does this only apply to sex though?

what if a black person hates their skin, doesn’t identify with the expectations of black culture, and thinks they should have been born white…

we don’t think they have a “mismatch” and bleach their skin.

we don’t think people with eating disorders have a “mismatch” when they hate their bodies and give “weight affirming care” , liposuction and wld.

they get therapy and treatment is aimed at teaching them to accept their bodies. Not medically changing them into what they think they should be.

no one is “born in the wrong body”.

I meant the first one; sorry for not being clear

Have you got that citation of the “medical proof” you claimed existed? Sorry to pester.

There is no definitive proof of there being a subset of people who have some kind of robustly diagnosable “neurological” gender dysphoria. Let’s say there was, and it could be consistently discerned by brain scans, then this is still irrelevant as those people still aren’t the opposite sex because of their brain issue. They simply believe they are because of their brain issue. Clearly they should be treated and managed but that doesn’t mean that we need to agree they are the opposite sex and be required to treat them as such.

Separately, there is another question about whether medical transition is an effective treatment or the only possible treatment to alleviate distress caused by that brain condition. Personally, I don’t have an issue with adults taking decisions they feel are best for their physical and mental health, assuming they have good quality information to make that choice. I don’t think that exists in this case. I also don’t think that anything about medical transition means that the person has changed sex and must be treated as the opposite sex.

Cis gender when used for a person who doesn’t have a gender identity incorrectly categorises them.

’Trans people’ are those who fit into the category of people whose gender identity doesn’t align with their sex. Whilst ‘identifying as trans’ may not be a preferred term/ label, it isn’t misclassifying.

This whole debate comes down to categories and inclusion and exclusion criteria and unless we use precise, clear and accessible language, we end up talking (or arguing) at cross purposes

You don’t see many “tradeswomen”. Really? Maybe not in your neck of the woods but we have lots here. I know quite a few women in construction trades.

maybe you should join the feminists smashing gender rather than defending people. Who claim those outdated norms mean they are the opposite sex

cindervative right: only women can wear dresses
genderists : if you wear a dress you're a woman
feminists: anyone wear a dress

do you see the difference?

The standards of the Western medical world would seem to suggest this to be the case. Even in the 90s, before the gender-affirming movement was like this, gender dysphoria was recognised.

Yes, I'd say that gender identity exists, whether that's in the form of cultural stereotypes or deeper cross cultural archetypes of masculine/ feminine. I think there's a difference between male and female that goes beyond biology. I'm not sure whether it's innate or has come about via external influences or is a combination of both.

Err…. Yes, yes it does my sweet summer child. In fact, some people believe taking hormones a make a man grow a cervix. Stick around. It’s a wild ride 😂😂😂😂

Link the “proof”, please. It shouldn’t be too difficult, surely, you seemed very sure it existed.

Revealing of what? I'm not sexist just because I disagree with you. I didn't even know this was a specifically feminist subforum; I was just looking for the place on Mumsnet where gender etc. is discussed.

Did you not look at the title of the board?

Errr…. How could you not know? It’s called feminism and women’s rights. The clue is in the title so did you just click on a random talk topic or are you telling a little porkie pie there….

I do believe that gender dysphoria is a thing. But from my perspective, it is a mental health problem that needs to be treated as such.

As I said above, anorexics often believe that they are too fat. We don't treat them effectively by affirming that they are fat.

And if people are delusional, I believe that the advice is to validate their emotions without actually colluding in the delusion or pretending that you think it's true.

Why should we treat this particular mental health problem differently?

You raise good points.

I disagree though; stereotypes, norms, expectations etc. are the basis for determining someone's gender. Someone short with long, cared-for hair, breasts, a thin waist, and large hips is going to be seen as a woman much more than as a man. You might say you can always tell their sex; this is only because the face is very revealing about your sex. It's likely you've confused someone's gender from behind before though. If you read of someone with a strong interest in military history and who sounds emotionally detached, you are much more likely to assume that person is a man than someone who describes their fervent environmental activism based on their love and respect for all living things. This is because various elements of either person are gendered - they fall into certain gender stereotypes.

The aim of people who identify as trans is typically to 'pass' as the opposite sex; they use gender to do that.

Well. You assume those things if you’re a sexist, misogynistic idiot. I also know quite a few women into military history. Usually because they served in the military. You seem very sexist for one so young. I blame the parents.

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Something for discussions related to feminism is different to something for feminists. I thought it was the first; I was told it was the latter; which is it?

Quite.

It's a religious type belief at best.

We can not legislate for it without creating a situation where reality of sex becomes heretical. We can not pick and choose who is legitimately trans and who is making it up either.

Suggesting in anyway that observing sex is somehow extremist is dishonest because the very notion of trans rests on the recognition of sex. Trans rights and protection in law rest on the recognition of sex.

Transmen effectively have some of the most to lose by a failure to get their head out their arses and rely on whether they pass or not.