Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

[FairHippopotama]

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

As another person here said, it was feminists who created the distinction between sex and gender, who defined gender as it is now used, not the gender-affirming movement.

I cannot believe I've been sucked into debating with a male poster who says he's a teenager.

I mean, the futility of it.

Of course.

Gender is simply a social construct based on sex. “Trans women” are men who identify as women, but most women have nothing in common with them that they don’t have with other men.

But surely the concept of gender merely serves to reinforce those stereotypes instead of challenging them, which is what we should be doing.

There are many men who don't want to conform to traditional male stereotypes, but still know that they are men.

Likewise, there are many women who don't want to conform to traditional female stereotypes but still know that they are women.

So if you set the stereotypes aside, what is left? What actually is gender if it is not just a collection of tired old tropes? This is a genuine question by the way, because I really don't understand.

Why would anyone think that “trans identifying women” ie adult female human beings who identify as men aren’t actually women? What about anyone’s posts could possibly suggest that?

@FairHippopotama is a teenage boy trying to tell women, many of who are do enough to be his mother, what a woman is.

This little mansplainer is definitely following gender stereotypes. Let’s go & talk about https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5513703-finnish-study-on-transition-and-psychiatric-outcomes-in-sex-and-gender-shows-increased-psychiatric-morbidity instead.

She already expects everyone she meets to follow along. She recognises that some won't, certainly, but she takes it for granted that most will. Whether I go along or not would do nothing to change her belief; it would only damage our relationship.

You can still challenge and question a male who acts in a voyeuristic way even if they identify as trans. Using the pronouns they request isn't mutually exclusive with that. You can, for example, deny this male access to the female bathroom but still call him a woman and use she/her pronouns. You can deny that a lesbian must consider this male in regards to dating. Acceptance of pronouns is not acceptance of the entire gender-affirming movement and everything that implies.

I don't think these pronouns should be forced on anyone, especially for not for victims of violence and/or rape. Using them for most people who identify as trans does not mean you must use it for people who seem to identify as trans to be placed into different prisons etc.

Your family example does sound very stressful, and could verge on emotional abuse, I agree. You should note though that your partner undergoing a transition is a valid reason for divorce and I don't think the gender-affirming movement contend that. One thing I've noticed: why don't you ever think of females transitioning? In the youngest generation, those aged 16-24, there are many more females transitioning than males; there has been a paradigm shift in the sexes of the people who identify as trans.

You're consistently right though that it does erase people's lived experiences. But that is the result of the question to use different pronouns in the first place. Someone you know closely transitioning and making these sorts of requests is the erasure and what causes psychological harm, not simply the acceptance of their claimed transition and adherence to their requests.

And I think that makes a lot of sense. My parents knew my sister as a girl for 14 years. Then she said she was non-binary. Then at 16 she said she was a boy. Regardless of whether or not they accept that in any way, they will have been massively impacted by that. The only choice they have from then on is to accept or deny the validity of my sister's claimed transition, and denial would mean irreparably damaging their relationship and severely worsening my sister's mental state. At that point, being philisophically or logically correct matters less.

I agree it's selfish in some sort of sense to hold these expectations. But that does not change the fact that they exist.

We are making exceptions because it has been scientifically proven that for people with 'real' gender dysphoria, transitioning and societal acceptance is the best treatment possible, regardless of the avoidant-type behaviour you mention. That does not necessarily mean that these people should be allowed into spaces reserved for the opposite sex; it simply means that society agrees with them that they are a different gender. You needn't make exceptions which aren't provided for by law. I haven't said that you should. I think we can be nice and fair at the same time.

It really has not been “proven”. Quite the opposite.

I’m sure that must be nonsense, as OP says it’s all been proven that gender affirming treatment is the best thing to do. And obvs he knows best.

Because therapy wouldn't work anymore. The gender-affirming movementto her detrimenthas convinced her one way, and it won't be possible to convince her the other, even though I don't think she has 'real' gender dysphoria.

You're right that we should interrogate gender dysphoria more. I would argue a large reason why teenage females and adult males transition is not because of actual gender dysphoria but societal pressures relating to gender, pressures from mental conditions like autism and ADHD, as well as struggles regarding sexuality or relationships which end up manifesting as gender dysphoria. These people are the ones who do need therapy and who for therapy would work.

There is no middle ground.

You can't change sex.

Suggesting you can and that people who say it's impossible are somehow extreme and there's a middle ground between reality and fantasy is fallacy bullshit.

Blah blah

Not listening.

You need legal definitions that can be applied unilaterally to all. The end.

I am. I'm very pleased with the number of responses and their depth! Just because I might disagree with you doesn't mean I'm not glad to have heard what you have to say.

It is not therapy that is needed, it is deprogramming.

Absolutely.

This is not our problem to accommodate and to be nice about.

Its crueler in the long term.

As far as I understand, feminists coined gender decades ago to refer to the expectations, norms, and roles associated with either sex. Gender is essentially a bunch of stereotypes. That's why many people are gender abolitionist, recognising that you don't have to be masculine to be a man nor feminine to be a woman.

The debate lies in what does being a man or woman actually mean if they are genders and genders are defined by these stereotypes? Gender-critical people, at least as represented by others on this post, seem to advocate for men and women being defined by their sex. Gender-affirming people would presumably say that men and women are those who identify as such, who are associated by society with the stereotypes around one sex or the other.

The middle ground, in my view, is to treat gender identity in the same way religious belief. We can recognise some people have the belief, some people feel comfortable affirming the belief even if they don’t share it, others do not feel comfortable affirming it- and all positions are acceptable.

Treating people with dignity and respect does not require affirming their beliefs. I think belittling those beliefs reflects failure to afford respect, but disagreeing or challenging them doesn’t.

The fact is that we seem to have a position where anyone can call themselves trans for whatever reason they want. No evidence, no proof just say it and everyone is supposed to accept it. You can’t say well this person has ‘genuine dysphoria’ and this person doesn’t. It’s quite obvious for at least some of these men it’s sexual and no matter how much people want to deny it, they must think women are stupid for not noticing. I am going to be honest, in these cases it feels like a complete mockery of women.

Objections to gendered stereotypes - the objections I share with you and others here - do not prevent society from still associating people with those stereotypes.

You might be right for some people who claim to be trans, but not all. Although some others here seem to disagree (as I have briefly noticed...), it really is medically proven that a very small proportion of humans experience some sort of mismatch that makes them hate their own body because of their sex and the expectations upon them due to their sex (gender dysphoria), and that the best treatment for this is transitioning.

"Gender-critical people, at least as represented by others on this post, seem to advocate for men and women being defined by their sex."

What do you mean @FairHippopotama by "men and women being defined by their sex"? Do you mean the words man/woman being defined as an adult human of either sex? Which is what I would agree with. Or do you mean that people are defined by their sex, as in it's their identity and defines them as a person with behaviours, attitudes etc?

People who identify as trans would say the exact same thing if you referred to them as 'identifting as trans' rather than simply 'trans'. They would also say it if you called them men or women based on their sex. You are upholding a double standard.

Yes, plenty of us here disagree. Let’s see your evidence of this irrefutable medical proof.

As I said, you are imposing your own fringe worldview on women who reject it. Most of us do not accept that there is such thing as “cisgender” and we do not wish to be labelled as such.

“People who identify as trans” are not the people you are trying to discuss this with here, and your repeated snd unrepentant use of a term women find insulting, as a man on the feminist board of a female majority site, is very revealing.