Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

[FairHippopotama]

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

Interestingly it doesn't seem to feature in Stonewall's glossary any more (correct me if I'm wrong).
Bristol Council a couple of years ago came up with a policy that tried to recognise gender identity and as you can imagine tied itself in knots trying to explain it (it's discussed on FWR somewhere). They defined agender as 'someone who rejects gender identification entirely' and, as far as i remember, this fell under the trans umbrella.

I think how "agender" is treated is interesting, as it's the only suggested option for not having a gender identity (both being cis and being trans require one). However in that case it seemed almost the same as non binary.

What you’re talking about is sex. That’s all.

I'm loathe to agree with Sally Hines, but gender is fluid. It can and does change all the time. But what doesnt ever change is our sex.

To suggest a vague, contestable, internal feeling should replace or override material reality is a gigantically daft idea one can only come up with via a theoretical lens.

'Gender identity' is a term that means 'how we feel about a set of ideas'. Both our feelings and those ideas [societal stereotypes] can and do change. Often.

Because ideas overlap with and are affected by material reality doesnt mean theyvare interchangeable with it or are even going to map onto it in a sensible way.

The theory of gender came out of academic feminism. People wanted to describe patriarchal oppression and the mechanisms involved, so they described a system of 'gender' - cultural trends and stereotypes. It basically creates a.means to separate us from our sex - feminists wanted to show women are not defined or restricted by sex.

Then fairly logically we have a term to describe how people relate to that system.

(just my rough understanding. Maybe more knowledgable posters could add names and texts etc to that)

No I don't believe it. I don't know how any parent could. You see your child go through the process of /learning/ that they are a girl/boy. You have to explain to them what that means, they don't know.

The process of learning and assimilating stereotyped associations is also only too obvious. As is the power of ideas on the human mind - confirmation biases basically. You get hooked on an idea like I should have been a boy and your brain prioritizes noticing and doing things that seem to reinforce that. We, particularly children, are programmed to pattern recognise, for survival, and it's very easy for that to tip into overdrive.

Simone de Beauvoir - one is not born a woman, one becomes one
Ann Oakley - gender is socially constructed and internalised
Sandra bem - how children internalise gender roles
judith butler - most recent, gender is a perfomance

Op if this is your dissertation fair play but you owe me champagne when you get a first 😂😂

I don't have a gender identity. I don't think most people do. I can accept that some people have developed one.

Who do you consider is suffering because of the patriarchy? All the 'lovely' trans people who are benefiting from it because it gives men the ability to trample over women and their rights while claiming victimhood?

Having the conversation and admitting that would reveal that they are actually not that lovely, and that they would have to curtail their behaviour, which of course they don't want to do.

If you think they are benefitting I would love to see how. I think they are being exploited and othered personally (I don’t count men who dress up as women to assault women as trans).

'Gender identity' is a term that means 'how we feel about a set of ideas'. Both our feelings and those ideas [societal stereotypes] can and do change. Often.

It's no different to 'politics' and how we feel about politics.

You mean some people prioritise certain politics over others?

'Gender identity' is a term that means 'how we feel about a set of ideas'.

I feel the set of ideas about how women are expected to act and dress in society is harmful, regressive and oppressive. Clearly therefore I do not identify with them. I am still a woman though.

100% this.

I am offended by the word.
It's superfluous.

I'm a woman and I don't need another qualifying adjective added on.

But you know that. That's why you're doing it, and being disingenuous about it.

We see you.

Every time a man goes into a public or workplace female toilet or changing room because he claims to be a woman, every time a man wins a sporting event while claiming to be a woman, every time a man takes an industry prize or a job that was created for women, every time a man gets sent to a women's prison because he claims to be a woman. That's when men benefit.

How are they not trans? Logically, there's nothing to exclude them from that category. Someone identifying as trans doesnt preclude them from acting certain ways?

Also people can be exploited, and othered, and benefit.

Males who ID as trans certainly do face discrimination and prejudice. Doesnt mean they arent also benefitting from that ID/status.

Ok shall we go back to OP’s dissertation 😂 😂 I don’t wanna fight with you I want to convince you all that identity, including gender, is not innate but develops through the interaction between biology, lived experience, and social expectations. Because all individuals are raised within gendered systems, they inevitably form a gendered sense of self. However, this is not fixed or inherently accurate, but a dynamic and evolving pattern shaped over time.

As I repeat like a broken record: Vulnerable, marginalised, does not necessarily equate to harmless and doesnt preclude bad behaviour.

I agree. And do stick around, its good.to discuss!

No, gender is a social construct based on stereotypes. Women like pretty things, wear skirts, have long hair, like painting their nails and men like football and beer. Sexist and reductive.

That's not to say the sexes are exactly the same of course but the differences aren't based on stereotypes. Men have more muscle mass and more easily gain the muscle for power vs endurance for women, women can have babies, breastfeed etc. They're facts.

What is absolutely clear is that given the lack of consensus and lack of ability of genderists to fully explain their definition, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for sterilising children on the basis of “innate gender identity”.

And those that do knowing full well their explanation doesn’t stand up to scrutiny are doing so malevolently as a result.

All people do surely?

I look at gender much the same way as I do religion as it's another belief system based on "trust me, can't prove this but trust me IT IS TRUE and if you don't abide by my unprovable beliefs YOU ARE A SINNER". I accept that some people wholly believe they have souls and are judged by an unseen all powerful god and their identity as a member of a particular religion is real and meaningful for them: I don't myself accept that souls are real, the god exists or that my lack of belief means I am an evil sinner.

I also look at it much the same way as I do serious mental illness: people can genuinely believe themselves to be something they are not. That their belief is fervent doesn't make it a real one.

And if you go by Acceptance without exception (Stonewall) & I am who I say I am (Amnesty & Steph Richards) then you can’t say that one person claiming to be trans is any less so than another. Whatever their motives.