Do you feel that gender identity exists and is innate?

[FairHippopotama]

In progressive circles, there's the concept of 'gender identity' where everyone has a gender (not necessarily corresponding to their sex) that is unchangeable and inherent to them as a person. Do you agree with this? Why or why not?

I would say that gender and politics may form part of our identity, or not, and that may change over time.

Someone stating, ‘I am a Labour through and through’ is a tell tale sign that they see their political affiliation as being a significant part of who they are. Someone else may be a strong supporter of Labour, canvass for them etc. but see this as a reasoned political position rather than a part of ‘who they are’.

One’s sex is an immutable fact, but whether it is viewed as a salient part of one’s identity will differ over time and between people. On top of this, people will load meaning (and gendered ideas) on to what it means to be of one sex or another and this will impact on how and whether one’s sex becomes and stays a core part of one’s identity.

It’s interesting that ‘gender identity’ is regarded as a stand alone phenomenon in a way that ‘religious identity’ or ‘political identity’ isn’t. It is simply one of many elements that may feature heavily, or not at all, in one’s identity. Even those who regard ‘gender’ to be a foundational aspect of who they are, are unlikely to think this is all there is to who they are. They will see and recognise differences between themselves and others who share ‘their gender’.

Exactly.

Aww thank you I’ve enjoyed discussing it with you!
I think when people get past the semantics they eventually start thinking the real question is to what extent should self-id inform rights given that the self is such a subjective, deeply influenced concept, yet clearly very real.

💯

Vulnerable does not mean safe.

An example, during a psychotic episode, an unwell person has trouble keeping themselves safe and will likely experience intense fear, confusion, and distress. Their heightened vulnerability puts those around them at increased risk.

We can see the risk that some males with trans identities present to women, because they advertise it openly. I suspect that many of these males are vulnerable (I think many have personality disorders) but they are also a danger to others.

And this where policy stops being sexy and becomes boring safeguarding 😂😂

Simone de Beauvoir - one is not born a woman, one becomes one

Not hugely relevant, but I think that soundbite is commonly misunderstood out of its context... what do you take it to mean?

Judith Butler said gender is performative, not a performance. If you're a nerd there is quite an interesting distinction between the two (regardless of whether you think JB is coherent in this topic...!)

well I told you - no one can escape a sexist society, so everyone embeds these values subconsciously whether they want to or not, which informs identity.

also I am a nerd but jb is outside my discipline. I’d be interested to hear!

A long time since I read the 2nd sex, but I took Beauvoir to be saying we learn both our sex and the stereotypes expected of it as girls. The first is fact, the latter is variable.

'you are a girl and will become a woman and women cook and are kind therefore you must do/be these things"

I dont see performative gender contradicting that?

Of course lots of things can be part of our “identity” or our personality, but that doesn’t mean they are innate, something we are born with. No one is a born Labour voter.

Or we decide to what degree we want to conform, rebel/subvert/resist, or ignore.

On Butler: https://newrepublic.com/article/150687/professor-parody

Yes but that’s still you learning the values and making a decision, which would inform your identity no?

Until relatively recently, people who didn't outwardly observe the rituals of the State's religion du jour were persecuted. This provides a powerful motive to pretend to believe.

So for gender dysphoria to be a real condition it follows that there must be some innate "gender identity".

Nah. Body dysmorphia manifesting as a rejection of your sexed body would cause a sincere desire for hormones and surgery.

Is now a good time to mention that most male transitioners keep their penises? Most are not sincerely body dysmorphic.

As is often the case, meaningful discussion / debate is difficult without using shared terminology. I refer to personality and identity as different phenomenon.

Personality is (when well) refers to the relatively stable way you respond to the world and includes traits, temperament and social style. It is heavily shaped by genetics.

Identity is the story you tell yourself about who you are. Identity is constructed, more influenced by society and more changeable.

There are real and significant consequences to having a weak, unstable or incoherent identity - this is the basis upon which a range of mental health disorders progress.

If you replace all the "to be" conjugations with different verbs, what's left?

"I [gave birth to /adopted] and parent children". "I play chess".

If I lost a finger and had to stop trumpet playing, I'm not a different person.

Not everything is about feelings and what goes on in the mind of an individual. Material reality, and common consensus about that reality, is of more consequence when it comes to the organisation and ordering of a society.

Yes, our identities shift and change with time, in response to circumstances and life's experiences. The only fixed aspects of oneself are the facts of our birth: which are our sex, our parents, our country or place of origin, our period in time.

This is a really helpful way of looking at it! Much clearer to people like me as well who aren't always sure of the unspoken meaning behind "I am a" sort of constructions. (E.g. I am a liberal person, I am a foodie)

Sure. I expect 'identity' is roughly equivalent to 'ego'. Both terms introduced as descriptors that have gained a lot of weight and baggage and create a lot of misunderstandings. People tend to want to ascribe value judgements to these ideas that can extend to the thing being described. See people thinking 'ego' is a bad thing, for example.

It’s just nature vs nurture wrapped up in different language to me

I must be boring, old-fashioned, and literal-minded. I certainly can't be doing with Judith Butler. But for me, gender means sex (except for coitus and grammar) and is primarily useful for compound noun formations:

Culturally imposed gender norms.

Acquired gender.

Gender recognition.

And, of course, gender identity, meaning the sex a transgender person wishes they were, but aren't.

I do have a theory about how GI might manifest, in terms of interactions with others. The boy feels towards the other boys in an opposite sex (fear/curiosity) way and towards the girls in a same-sex (rivalry/camaraderie) way. So he adopts current local cultural sex norms to fool us into treating him as a girl.

He's still a boy, though.

Sure. Many people would suggest being focussed too hard on 'identity' is unhealthy. Its natural and often useful to use 'identity' to help categorise ourselves and others but it can cause issues if we become rigid or confuse 'identity' with material reality.

Identity: I am a chess player
Reality: I play chess
Useful: I am interested in discussing chess strategy
Harmful: Draughts players are heathens who must be shunned

Language makes it too easy to collapse or conflate different spheres sometimes.

'I do have a theory about how GI might manifest, in terms of interactions with others'

Thats what I mean about it being how we relate to norms/stereotypes. Realistically I suppose, how we relate to other people.

How is that difference to any other political or religious beliefs?

I'm sorry but gender is a period in time related event which doesn't have anything significantly more to it than say nationalism might affect someone.