Men who say they are women

[Shedmistress]

Men who say they are women and then also say 'I don't like men in women's spaces'.

They totally understand that the men that are in women's spaces, are them, right?

They must know that.

We know they know that.

They know that we know they know that.

They know full well that the reason 'nobody has ever challenged me' is because women don't want a punch in the face. Or to face years of a tribunal because the man who says he is a woman went crying to the manager.

They say they are victims of the patricarchy, but they ARE the patriarchy. They know this. Because they are men.

This whole 'needing to use female spaces' comes from the doctors who would only sign off on a surgery if the men had duped people into allowing them to use female spaces, and to which we refer back to the above points of nobody wanting to challenge them. Not because of the potential for male violence, just for the exploitation of females who don't want to be punched.

I find it fascinating, i really do, the delusion to which we are all supposed to dance around and the deletions when women just say no. Or when women refer to their own situations having come across these men and the inferences that 'we've never met one, so how would we even tell'. For me it is the personal experiences that made me as hard line as I am.

Have you noticed the pattern on which threads they post on and which they don't ?

It's fascinating in its own right.

Of course they know.

They just don't care.

What I find most notable about these men is that they behave in the most masculine way possible, they infringe on women's spaces, act like predators, refuse to listen to women, refuse to respect consent.

They're basically incels, but think they can get away with it because they claim to have a 'female' gender identity. Bullshit.

They are misogynistic, narcissistic, entitled, bullying men, all the way down.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this

Why would you assume a man who wants to identify as a female is out to punch females. That's a bizarre thought process

You might have to google 'male violence against women and girls' if you've never heard of it.

I agree some/many of them know, and just don't care.

But of course there are exceptions. I know a TIM, a very close friend who I've known all my life. This person is diagnosed with gender dysphoria and has never shown a single hint of any kind of sexual motive for dressing as a woman. He is shy and tries to make himself as invisible as possible. I suspect he is "mildly" autistic.
He would say that although he was born with a man's body, he has a "female brain". He's obviously read that highly dubious study (can't remember its name) claiming to prove that TIMs have "womanly" brains. Usually he is a sensible logical person, but I guess he is so desperate to believe that his brain is female that he has overlooked the obvious flaws in the study. He truly believes he has a female brain, and that this, rather than more overtly physical/reproductive sex, is what should define men and women in our society. Therefore he thinks he genuinely is a woman. He has been using women's toilets for nearly fifteen years, since the doctors told him to.

I haven't asked further as we have an unspoken agreement not to discuss it!

He knows he is male though so not an exception.

And the fact you cant discuss it is part of the delusion we are all supposed to participate in.

I agree completely, it is a delusion. But to him, he is a woman (based on his incorrect belief in brain-sex) and therefore, to him, he does not know he is male. He genuinely thinks he is female.

A reminder of how long these discussions have been happening.
This letter from Angela Douglas back in 1977 is something to keep remembering.

(The tweet linking it also has an article from Germaine Greer which is also a very good reminder.)

https://x.com/hennieinglis/status/2031067162975117536?s=46

Dear Sister,
In regards to the Sandy Stone controversy: genetic women- Gennys-have never had to suffer the discrimination, self-hatred or fear that a transsexual must endure and survive in their lives. Genetic women are not ridiculed as severely, killed, tortured and arrested simply because they are
transsexual, as are transsexuals. Genetic women have many rights, in comparison to transsexuals, who havenone.

Genetic women cannot possess the very special courage, brilliance, sensitivity and compassion-and overview-that derives from the transsexual experience. Free from the chains of menstruation and child- bearing. transsexual women are obviously far superior to Gennys inmany ways.

As some of you have discovered. because of the severity of the genocidal attitudes we must deal with all of our lives, many transsexuals have learned how to fight without giving any quarter or showing any mercy.

Genetic women are becoming quite obsolete, which is obvious, and the
future belongs to transsexual women. We know this, and perhaps some of you suspect it. All you have left is your “ability" to bear children, and in a world which will groan to feed 6 billion by the year 2000, that's a negative asset.

Transsexual and veryproud,
Angela Douglas
Berkeley
Reprinted from Sister August-September, 1977

The warning to women who don’t agree were part of that discussion even then.

”many transsexuals have learned how to fight without giving any quarter or showing any mercy.”

We were warned not to show resistance to men getting what they wanted.

I agree.
And you just know this thread is going to be one of them if it isn't deleted.

Does he also think lack of challenge means women don't notice, or don't mind, the obvious male in their spaces? I'm assuming he's not one of the tiny minority who actually 'pass'.

Is it difficult, genuinely, being friends and playing along? I don't think I could do it now, however nice the person outwardly.

Here is a tweet that links to a clip from an early UK TV show with men discussing how they are women .

https://x.com/Jonnywsbell/status/2030798915423887413?s=20

"1973: Transsexuals smugly declare: "we chose to be women, transsexualism is the tip of the iceberg, sex is fluid, and birth certs must change"..

This clip shows the long term goal. It took them decades to get the momentum but convincing Stonewall to include their issues as a major campaign focus was a game changer to achieving their goals.

I'll quote Robin Morgan again because she was spot on back in 1973:

'No, I will not call a male “she;” thirty-two years of suffering in the androcentric society, and of surviving, have earned me the name “woman”; one walk down the street by a male transvestite, five minutes of his being hassled (which he may enjoy), and then he dares, he dares to think he understands our pain? No, in our mothers’ names and in our own, we must not call him sister. We know what’s at work when whites wear blackface; the same is at work when men wear drag.'

Reposting this article:
https://www.evakurilova.com/p/trans-is-nothing-new-and-neither

And those early engagements from the 1970s have led to this most recent example.

This is the reaction to being told ‘no, you should respect female people’s needs for single sex provisions’ by a celebrity.

Alexandra Billings self published these videos . This one first I believe.

https://x.com/gaynotqueer1/status/2032811484271817092?s=46

Then the chilling and menacing response to women saying 'no' here stitched into Amy Sousa’s response.

https://x.com/knownheretic/status/2032639781658833142?s=46

Once you see the menace, it cannot be unseen.

We see it regularly in the aggression from men who simply cannot accept that women reject their demands that we accept them as women. They also then may resort to DARVO tactics to shame women and girls into accepting them if the philosophising stage, followed by the aggression stage doesn’t work.

Bosky thoughtfully posted a script for this segment too.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5445899-break-it-down-for-me-2-general-break-it-down-archive-thread?reply=151134476&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

It is difficult for me to assess whether he "passes". He is taller than your average woman, but slouches because he doesn't want to attract attention. He actually has a somewhat unmasculine face naturally, and my best guess would be that people are 90% sure he's a man, but not quite certain, so they don't risk saying anything. He is so desperate to avoid attention that he probably isn't in the communal area of the toilet long enough for anyone to actually say anything. He doesn't use changing rooms etc.

I wouldn't choose to become friends with someone who is trans, no. But this is somebody who is like family to me. He is enjoyable to spend time with, and never ever talks about trans stuff. I see it the same as I would see a friend who started following a nutty cult religion- so long as they didn't ram it down my throat I wouldn't ditch them as a friend just because they'd been horribly mislead and were possibly mentally vulnerable. If people like me don't keep lines of friendship and communication open then people like my friend will exist completely in a dangerous echo chamber.

How do you know he hasn't shown any sexual motive for dressing as a woman? You don't know what's going on in his head nor seen him behind closed doors.

He shouldn't be in women's spaces.

It's sad to hear that your friend never recovered from his gender dysphoria - I was lucky, I did, and managed to come to terms successfully, though with difficulty, to living my life as the woman I am.

He has a mistaken belief about himself. He is not and never will be a woman.

He's wrong about male/female/trans brains, as you know. It's a pity he hasn't been supported to accept and love himself as he truly is: a man in a man's body.

People with gender dysphoria deserve all the care and support in the world to try to overcome their alienation from their bodies - nobody is born in the wrong body, and nobody has a brain that does not match their body.

Is it really '#bekind' to support someone in avoiding the reality of their sex? Obviously I don't mean to constantly confront them by telling them they are a man not a woman, but not to encourage or foster their mistaken belief, and not to condone them using women's toilets, which, being a man, your friend is not entitled to use.

It's a tricky situation to be in as his friend, but maybe somebody in their lives needs to keep trans IDing men like him in touch with the reality that they are not and never can be women?

Yep. This at least isn't one that concerns me in terms of misinformation. It will just be one that gets me railed.

He would say that although he was born with a man's body, he has a "female brain".

As you say, he's bought into sexism so very deeply that he can't apply the logic needed to conclude that men's brains include those that are like his.

It's bloody depressing that people who clearly have spent a lot of time thinking about the sexes and gender still decide that "women are people who have the mental characteristics that I've decided".... no doubt excluding many women who don't act as they "should".

I didn't say that he should! I agree that he is a man. I am just explaining how he sees things, that's all. It can be useful to remember that trans people are not one homogeneous mass; they have different motivations as do we all.

I know he hasn't shown a sexual motive publicly. He dresses like me, in unisex style jeans and t shirts. He doesn't wear makeup or anything along those lines. He definitely isn't getting a sexual kick from being in women's toilets, because he shoots straight into the cubicle, head down, then shoots out, head down, flits his hands under the tap, and shoots out again. He avoids going to the toilet outside house/work unless he really can't avoid it.

This is the most recent bit of emotional manipulation.

x.com/prideukorg/status/2034591948648923557?s=46

It's not our responsibility to ensure they aren't beaten up. That's mens.

Do something about male violence rather than forcing women to put up with being violated in terms of their privacy, dignity and risk to safety.

Not our fucking problem.

Wow, that letter is chilling.