How do navigate things with older/adult dc who are pro-trans ideology if you are not?

[Fancycrab]

Just wondering those of you who are GC and have teenagers or young adult dc who strongly support trans ideology, how do you navigate this? Do you just agree not to discuss it? Does it ever interfere with your relationship? My DD is still little but her dad, who I’m separated from is very pro trans rights and believes the whole gender ideology bollocks. I worry that he will brainwash DD into believing it too when she’s older and she’ll end up seeing me as the uncool, unprogressive one who just “doesn’t get it” 🙄

It is a social experiment.

No person who respected female people and their needs would make this suggestion. Unless they were so ideologically driven that they believed that no female person can ever correctly sex a male person.

Because whoever tells women that ‘case by case’ safeguarding should allow even one male person to be housed in a female prison is really saying ‘any of you female people who DO correctly sex this male person just need to STFU, too bad if you are a victim of male people’s abuses.’

They are telling traumatised female people that they don’t have the same value that any male person has.

However, if people can convince themselves that they are actually female when they are male, I guess they will be able to believe anything they want to believe. It makes it very easy to dismiss the needs of female people when a group of male people’s needs has also been described as being the needs of female people.

convenient that, isn’t it? The script runs:

Insist that male people are female people.

Therefore any ‘male person who says they are female’s needs are just as validly described as female people’s needs.

Therefore any ‘male person who says they are female’s crimes are just as validly described as female people’s crimes. Meaning ‘female people do it too’.

Therefore ‘case by case’ is deemed appropriate. Because female people also commit these crimes using this definition and therefore all the needs of ‘female people’ now also apply to those male people too. So they must be treated as if they are female.

Meanwhile, material reality abides and those male people are simply male people.

Transwomen commit violent, sexual crimes at a far higher rate than either men or women.

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent
official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

"I don't know much about that"
"You know more than me"
"I haven't seen that"
"I assume"

Hmmm...
....educate yourselfffff?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5445880-statistics-poll-evidence-archive-thread?reply=149720567&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5445880-statistics-poll-evidence-archive-thread?reply=149263368&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5445880-statistics-poll-evidence-archive-thread?reply=149721144&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5445880-statistics-poll-evidence-archive-thread?reply=149221203&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

And here is still what happens with ‘case by case’

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5445880-statistics-poll-evidence-archive-thread?reply=148617659&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

You know nothing about what you are here telling us your opinion on. You continue to show us you know fuck all about consent and safeguarding.

... and fuck all about being female.

Yep.

Operation: Let them speak! in action though.

Trans women are not exceptions. This is your belief that trans women are men. Trans people and trans supportive people do not 'want men in women's facilities.'

How many of those 'trans women' have GRCs? How many of them were post transition, well established in their lives?

Quoting context-free justice statistics does not represent any meaningful data about non-incarcerated trans people.

Trans people are not 'a trans.'

Trans people end up as 'collateral damage' far more often than non trans people.

Gender critical absolutism alienates people more than they realise.

Maybe I don't spend all my hours obsessing about trans people?

There are other people who spend time refuting the bad faith data and untwisting hate speech. I'm sure you're already familiar with them.

I've presented thoughts that accomodate the heterogeneity of trans people today within my beliefs.

I know my beliefs and experience are heretical in the gender critical religion. Believe me, I've seen many examples of how our lives and existence must be excoriated by its followers.

Maybe I don't spend all my hours obsessing about trans people?

Allow me a moment of irony at hearing this by a trans-identifying person, posting about trans identifying people.

Some things I've noticed about the people you're debating with: they are informed, they do think carefully about what they believe, they do do the research, they follow the logical line of reasoning, and they stand behind their conclusions.

That's why it's hard to tear down the TERF point of view, and the TRA arguments fall apart as soon s you look at them.

What nonsense.

Just admit that you don't care about women's rights and move on - it's completely obvious.

Why should women have to put up with men in their single sex spaces because you think men's desires are more important than women's rights and dignity?

“How many of those 'trans women' have GRCs? How many of them were post transition, well established in their lives?”

You are the one who is gatekeeping who is and is not transgender. You are the one demanding ‘context’ so you can dismiss statistics.

And yet…. It is all completely irrelevant really, because male people remain male all their lives. There is no magic that happens if they have a cavity sewn into their groin. They are still male and they still seem to commit crime in the pattern of the general male population.

There is no ‘case by case’ scenario that fully protects female people as they need to be protected. Full exclusion of all male people.

Strong Safeguarding demands no exceptions are made of a sex class. History has taught us this. Case by case is a safeguarding fail for female people.

If I understand you correctly @onepostwonder, you believe that as a result of the surgery and hormone treatment that you have had, combined with possession of a GRC, you are as much a woman as any adult born female. Following on from this you believe that you should be afforded the safety, privacy and dignity provided by women's single sex spaces and services. You cannot or will not imagine the possibility that any biological woman would see you as male. Unfortunately, your imagination is wrong and some women will see you as your natal sex and immediately be denied that sense of safety, dignity and privacy that you are claiming. It doesn't matter wether 1% or 99% of women correctly identify your sex, you are stealing from them and this is not acceptable.

Please, please, please consider those women who know that you are a man and stay out of our single sex spaces and services?

Unfortunately, your imagination is wrong and some women will see you as your natal sex and immediately be denied that sense of safety, dignity and privacy that you are claiming.

The argument goes that it is that woman's fault for being a bigot...

It doesn't matter wether 1% or 99% of women correctly identify your sex, you are stealing from them and this is not acceptable.

... and because she's a bigot, she doesn't deserve what has been stolen from her.

It's catch-22: if you the kind of woman who feels strongly that the presence of men is an invasion of privacy then you're the kind of woman who doesn't deserve privacy.

Good luck. Maybe they will listen to you. They have not listened to a single female person who doesn’t agree with them on this board so far.

I started HRT as a teen over 40 years ago. I had surgery in my 20s over 30 years ago. I started transition and had surgery in two different countries, neither of which is in the UK. My birth country required I have sex change surgery to change my birth documents, which I did. I have no GRC as I've never needed a GRC. They didn't even exist at the time.

Your beliefs do not reflect my experience. It is your choice to maintain your beliefs. I will retain my own.

@MyAmpleSheep @Helleofabore I am under no illusions that I will be listened to but I am totally fucked off with the David Walliams "I'm a laydee" routine, the appeal for passing privileges and the idea that you can earn a woman's identity if you fuck your body up enough.

Material reality will abide no matter what a person’s subjective belief about reality is.

Safeguarding should only deal in material reality because a belief that is contradictory to material reality is always going to be a weakness in that safeguarding.

Your beliefs do not reflect my experience.

What experience is this? Just because no woman has actually said "you are a man" doesn't mean that at least one woman has thought it.

It is amusing that someone calls, recognising the reality (which is completely demonstrable) that human beings cannot change sex, a 'belief'.

There is a saying: If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. A certain poster has supplied enough horses for Trooping the Colour during his time on MN with all his wishing.

Gosh how dismissive are you!

people cannot be born into the wrong body

of course they can

How does that work then?

Where is the right body?

How does this happen?

Where is the evidence for this?

Is a person with severe congenital physical disabilities also born in the wrong body?

If I were to die tomorrow I would have no regrets. My life, while challenging at first, has been wonderful. Every moment has been a blessing. I love my husband and our life together. I am so so proud of our children. I love my parents and brother. My extended family was never anything but supportive. My careers were so much more than a freak like me had any right to experience. Nothing sex realists believe will ever change this.

To the original poster, on topic I think:

Sex realists prove again and again that their efforts have very little to do with genuinely protecting anyone. Spaces and sports are a convenient diversion with some current social currency. Trans people are bullied and harassed unrelentingly online. People are told we are both mentally and physically infirm. People are told we are diabolically criminal. People are told we are pharmaceutically and surgically damaged. People are told we are failures and are despondently unhappy. Thankfully, it seems most people aren't persuaded by such neo-puritanical sophistry.

If someone is constantly characterising trans people as villains, I'd ask why they are doing this. They aren't protecting anyone and they're not doing themselves, or the person they are telling any favours.