Isn’t AGP also what every woman experiences when they get dressed up & feel good about themselves?

[Theboredpanda]

I have no agenda here. I’ve always just been interested in exploring other perspectives of debates…although I’m sure this particular thought will get flamed on here and end up very one-sided indeed 🤣
I don’t believe every trans woman has AGP, but I believe a significant proportion do. And I’ve always considered that proportion to be creepy, I feel anger at the fact these men get to walk around, at least in some circles, socially accepted as women, just so they can satisfy a sexual fetish. However, I was thinking about how I feel as a woman who’s comfortable and happy about being a woman when I get dressed up in my favourite sexy outfit and put on some makeup. It makes me feel sexy. Not sexually aroused but I do feel sexy. Is that vastly different to what a trans woman feels like when they get dressed up and look (at least in their eyes) like a woman? Could it be that it’s either not AGP and we all feel sexy when we know we look good as the gender we are or want to be…or everyone’s a bit AGP when they think they look sexy because they therefore feel sexy? Or is this a totally unoriginal thought that’s already been troped out by TRAs and actually there is a huge difference??

My goodness me.

Everything you have said has been said before. You bring nothing new.

I've explained what you are missing and why you are wrong. You have shown yourself at this point unable to grasp that.

So I am telling you, once more, to get over yourself, to go away, read the board, understand what has already been said, learn something and bring something new.

There are years, close to a decade, of posts on this board that go every deeply into this topic and into why society accomodating the belief that womanhood is a characteristic of the mind rather than the body is so damaging to female people's political, legal and social autonomy.

Yet you, in your arrogance, think there cannot be anything that you could learn.

Bring something new. Then maybe you'll be worth my time.

People aren't typically being assaulted in restrooms.

Are you in the USA?

So you despise women. Don't expect us to congratulate you on that.

OK, that's your opinion and you've shared it, but -
why did you quote my post ? It suggests you are engaging with what I said, but in fact your post doesn't relate to either of the points I made about safety only being one of the issues in the historical development of sex-segregated toilets, and the role of feminist campaigning in bringing women's toilets into existence in the first place.

Ok. I’m going to complain about men calling themselves women and accessing female spaces. They can wear whatever the fuck they like as long as they don’t claim to be women.

I actually have a pretty nuanced look at plenty of things, including this. I don't think that biological sex is irrelevant at all. So you're just making accusations based on nothing other than the fact that I mentioned a few things here I don't agree with. Such as public toilets or generalizing that people are criminals based on what they wear or where they go in public. And I also don;t agree that being transgender is offensive to anyone. Your tantrums are just that, tantrums. Many people think your views are wrong, offensive, and maybe even criminal too.

You and others have also made terrible, factually wrong arguments too. Like making appeals to the law, despite the fact that many laws are wrong, are subject to change, and you likely disagree with plenty of laws that exist. So the "Well, the law says trans women can't use the women's room, so it's correct" canting isn't a factual argument. It's an appeal to authoritarianism.

Have fun wasting your life.

Nope, I don't judge people based on characteristic, unlike yourself 😊

Being trans isn't an ideology.

There's no such biologically demonstrable thing as "being trans". So until there is any proof at all that "being trans" is a real, actual, physical phenomenon, it remains no more than an ideology.

Most trans people don't seem to think that men and women need to conform to gender norms.

"Need to", no; they just think non-trans people do conform to gender norms as a matter of fact. That's why trans men and trans women try so hard to conform to the opposite sex's supposed gender norms, while the non-binary and genderqueer cohorts think they upend the gender norms

My arguments are coherent, logical and sound. I've made them many times before and I have confidence in them.

Read the board. Learn. Come back with nuanced arguments. I'll be here.

Like making appeals to the law, despite the fact that many laws are wrong, are subject to change, and you likely disagree with plenty of laws that exist. So the "Well, the law says trans women can't use the women's room, so it's correct" canting isn't a factual argument. It's an appeal to authoritarianism.

Good luck using that line if you're caught breaking a law 'But Officer, I disagree with that and it is likely to change and you're just canting in an authoritrian manner ...'

The law, which was very recently restated by the UK Supreme Court, says that facilities that are sex-segregated are, and always have been, segregated on the basis of biological sex.

So it is wrong for any biological male, however he IDs, to use sex-segregated facilities that are designated for women.

You call it authoritarianism. Others - like the UKSC - call it the law.

Trans is about enforcing gender norms. The only reason trans exists is because its exponents insist people should conform to gender norms. It invented gender norms. It tries to categorise people as 'masculine' and 'feminine' and make them play dress-up games to support that.

Gender is cobblers, it does not exist, sex exists and people do not have to wear fancy dress costumes because of their sex, it is there regardless.

"no; they just think non-trans people do conform to gender norms as a matter of fact." No they don't, where's your proof of that? They can see people being gender non conforming and don't have a problem with it. There's nothing wrong with conforming to gender norms. It's only wrong when people are pressured to do it. Are trans people telling you how to dress?

Ironically, people in this thread have been pushing gender norms the whole time by thinking it's appropriate to link wearing a dress to being a pervert. Great message to send to boys that want to wear dresses and makeup

Oh dear!

1. Being trans is no longer considered a mental illness (though I think it should be but probably not in the way you think).
2. What trauma?
3. Most very young trans people are autistic and gay (and female). Most middle-aged trans people are neither (nor female).

No. We are talking about 'trans'. Read up. Come back and discuss when you have gained a modicum of understanding. I do recommend the ICD. Or the DSM if you prefer. The NHS uses the former for diagnosis, often refer to the latter.

'Gender Incongruence' requires exclusion of fetishistic paraphilia before diagnosis.

Books have been written on this issue. Ill informed opinion is worth little.

Which trans people are telling you how to dress, or dictating that dress sense should be forced by law? You're confusing personal preference with enforcement, because you have no respect for individuality. People can be as conforming or unconforming as they wish. Very simple :)

Uh, no. Gender norms and roles heavily predate transgenderism by generations. Transgenderism is a relatively new thing historically speaking.

Again, it's ironic you are complaining about the idea of enforcing gender norms, when you seem to want to emotionally blackmail men into not wearing dresses by generalizing that they might be perverts just because they wear a dress.

If trans men and trans women didn't think that non-trans people adhere to gender norms, then they wouldn't try to stick so strictly to gender norms either.

If non-binary and genderqueer people didn't think non-trans people adhere to gender norms, then the very words "non-binary" and "genderqueer" wouldn't even exist, since there would be no "gender" to define them against.

I do actually agree with this. I don't want to see men and boys who like stereotypically feminine clothes to be judged and socially penalised for wearing what they like. I think the more normalised it becomes for males to wear dresses the less of an appeal it will have to the fetishists. I just don't want these guys to be considered legally women and allowed access to women's spaces.

A lot of people adhere to gender norms, some don't. I'm not sure why you're bothered by this if no one is telling you how to dress? This is free will you're describing. If trans people want to conform to gender norms, that's a preference. It's not telling you to do the same. So you're inventing an issue out of nothing here.

And again, the people here aren't really against gender stereotypes, what woth saying that men wearing dresses is linked to being a pervert.

I'm bothered by it because it restricts my freedom of expression. As a transman, I'm expected, both by trans and non-trans people, to present as male as possible. "If you're a man, then..." comes from both sides. So yeah, people are very much telling me how to present.

I'm with RatWrangler: let people wear whatever they want, as long as it's decent (no fetish gear, for example), but let's not pretend it makes them of a different sex than the one they were born into.

Did you read that link https://x.com/Psychgirl211/status/1949401505653567705 I posted earlier?

Would you like to revisit this exchange, Skywinn , and acknowledge that you got it wrong?

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 15:11
Why do you think that single sex toilets and changing rooms were first facilitated ?
Skywinn · Today 15:14
It wasn't over sexual assault and it wasn't through feminist activism, for one thing.

Incorrect statements about historical feminist activism tend to get noticed on a board that has 'feminism' in the title.