Isn’t AGP also what every woman experiences when they get dressed up & feel good about themselves?

[Theboredpanda]

I have no agenda here. I’ve always just been interested in exploring other perspectives of debates…although I’m sure this particular thought will get flamed on here and end up very one-sided indeed 🤣
I don’t believe every trans woman has AGP, but I believe a significant proportion do. And I’ve always considered that proportion to be creepy, I feel anger at the fact these men get to walk around, at least in some circles, socially accepted as women, just so they can satisfy a sexual fetish. However, I was thinking about how I feel as a woman who’s comfortable and happy about being a woman when I get dressed up in my favourite sexy outfit and put on some makeup. It makes me feel sexy. Not sexually aroused but I do feel sexy. Is that vastly different to what a trans woman feels like when they get dressed up and look (at least in their eyes) like a woman? Could it be that it’s either not AGP and we all feel sexy when we know we look good as the gender we are or want to be…or everyone’s a bit AGP when they think they look sexy because they therefore feel sexy? Or is this a totally unoriginal thought that’s already been troped out by TRAs and actually there is a huge difference??

Simply wearing a dress does not make a man feminine, though. Though for men who adopt a trans identity this is one of the first items they will reach for; that and having long hair and wearing make-up.

There are many women who never wear dresses or wear high heels or make-up. There is nothing essentially 'feminine' and certainly not 'female'( apart from a gender stereotype) about wearing a dress.

Just because a woman is firm about her boundaries and around the issue of consent it does not mean she is "demonising" someone.

"I would suggest one difference lies in whether or not a person demands to be treated as if they are female or not while wearing those dresses. While we cannot always know what is a male person’s motivation to wear dresses, if they are demanding that anyone treats them as if they are female while dressed that way can be considered as further segmenting the group into whether that male person might have a paraphilia involving them being treated as, or just dressed as a female."

So you think it's okay to assume a trans identified person is unsafe around children? Is that what you're trying to imply? I thought most trans women were gay/autistic people? Seems pretty bad to encourage them to be treated as potential predators based on nothing but how they present themselves.

"It isn’t as clear cut as you are attempting to frame it. However, like the main principles of safeguarding that allow for sex segregated provisions, if we cannot establish the motivation for the male person’s choice of attire not including them in a female single sex provision goes a long way to protecting female people from being utilised this way."

I just inherently disagree with this crap because I don;t think there's anything wrong with men and women being in unisex spaces. If it's something like prisons then I don;t think they should be housed together, but toilets I don;t agree with. Men and women even share nude spaces with each other. That's a matter of how you personally feel.

"If that means that when in contact with a child a male person restricts their attire to not be wearing dresses and skirts cut to fit female bodies" #

What is wrong with a man wearing a dress that was made for women? Assuming it's not overly revealing, then how is it a problem? And also, how is somewhat revealing clothing indicative of predatory behaviour? Adult men in speedos/trunks are allowed around children with no issue. Revealing clothing isn't automatically sexualised unless it's designed a specific way.

I think it is quite clear now that you can only see things through your own prejudiced lens and you frame everyone’s posts as being them being bigoted and hateful.

why? Because you personally don’t need single sex provisions? So therefore you seek to disparage anyone who does?

Maybe one of the reasons that sex crimes committed by drag queeens or those with trans identities is often highlighted may well be to do with the fact that both of these categories of people are overtly concerned with the blurring of boundaries and not adhering to the normal rules or codes of conduct.

Additionally, It is well known the PIE infiltrated the Gay liberation movement and now ride in on the coat tails of the TQ+

We weren't talking about consent in that conversation, show me where that was brought up. We were talking about the way she was assuming that people who feel uncomfortable with their bodies and want to change them was somehow about her. So yes, it is demonizing mentally ill people to claim their trauma has some malicious content, when they are already feeling bad enough. Strange thing to do when supposedly most trans people are autistic and gay?

Grayson Perrry, its all fun and games until you wear a dildo to a children's charity event. And nobody bats an eyelid.

They pushed and pushed and its just not fucking funny any more guys.

I didn't call people bigoted or hateful to begin with. And i never said single sex spaces are never necessary. I don;t agree in the case of public toilets, because it makes no sense. My criticism was quite clearly aimed at people who want to generalize the way people dress as a sign of being a predator, especially since that conflicts with supposed concerns for gender non conforming people and their acceptance.

And yes, I do think it's bigoted to accuse people of malicious intent simply because they have mental health issues. 100%

Oooo fella's getting emotional now! This really winds you up doesn't it?

I have answered the "how does it hurt you question" - you even replied. Go back and read properly instead of letting your emotions jerk you around.

And no, sadly prejudices do not go away just because we want them to. But with long, hard, often thankless work by rights movements like Feminism, society can change. Yes we still face structural and everyday sexism and racism in the UK, but women are no longer literal property here, and the signs that once told Black people they were not welcome are no longer accepted.

So I'm aghast that you think it because racism and sexist are hard to eradicate we should just leave them unchallenged. These things changed because people did not accept them unchallenged.

And in the same way that just because racism and racial sterotypes still exist, that does not mean it's ok for a white person to express their "Blackness" by wearing stereotypically Black clothes, just because sexism and sexist stereotypes still exist that does not mean it's ok for a male person to express their "Femininity" by wearing sterotypically female clothes.

So sure, wear the clothes if you like them. I'll support any man to do that. But not because they express Femininity. Wear them because you are a man who knows that both Femininity and Masculinity are two sides of the same sexist shite coin and real freedom and acceptance is to realise we are all far more than that.

But if you start to think "hey this dress is good but it really doesn't hang right without tits" and your next thought is not "I'll need to get it altered" but "I wonder how I can get some tits?" - that's the time to take a good honest look at yourself and accept you aren't just a man wearing a dress you like any more, you are a man dressing up as a woman.

Because Women are not a costume. Not for gay men, not for AGP men, not for men who deeply and truly believe something in their minds makes them more like women then men.

These men don't see us. The "women" they want to be, the" women" they dress as, maybe even believe they are, are in reality nothing to do with us and how we actually live our lives. They are just these men's own sexist projections onto us. And as such, we have no moral obligation to indulge their view of us over our own.

But honestly, LOL at academic.

Mate, "academic" is men like you trying to "logically" (and bad logic, I might add) explain to actual women why our own experiences of our own lives don't count. Can't get more "academic" than a man trying to explain the experience of womanhood!

So far I have given you more courtesy than you deserved, frankly because everyone deserves a chance to learn, but the fact is that I've demolished your points even if you are too het up to accept it.

You are not bringing anything new, and I'm bored of you.

Read the board, understand what has already been said, go away and learn something and bring something new. Then maybe you'll be worth my time.

People are not demonising mentally ill people; women are defending their own boundaries,,..The trans movement has sought to remove them. If someone keeps in their own lane there should be no real issue...but 'trans' and acts of 'transgression' seem to go together.

Dismissing all evidence that doesnt suit you is not helpful to discussion. Bullshit assertions aren't convincing just because it's your opinion.

Men commit 99% of all sex crime and 80% of all violent crime.

Fetishistic paraphilias exist and are almost exclusively confined to the male sex.

Why do you think that single sex toilets and changing rooms were first facilitated ?

Trans isnt a mental illness. Its classed as a sexual condition. Its 'incongruence'.

"you are a man dressing up as a woman." I don't care about that. Simple. You have a problem with it, it doesn't make it wrong. Many people will think you're wrong and immoral for things you support.

"Can't get more "academic" than a man trying to explain the experience of womanhood!"

I never attempted to explain anyone's experience about anything. You'll have to pinpoint where. I did say that it's wrongheaded for people to assume that trans women are making a statement about 'womanhood' in general, because that's false. Most aren't dictating that you need to dress a certain way or live a certain way. If you take their own preferences as some insult against you, that's your problem, not theirs. I disagree with you. Deal with it

It wasn't over sexual assault and it wasn't through feminist activism, for one thing.

Read the board, understand what has already been said, go away and learn something and bring something new. Then maybe you'll be worth my time.

I don't just believe in charts or statistics. And the chart you listed is claiming that 'men who identify as women' commit the most crime, so the conclusion you want to come to is what? What happened to the claim that most trans identified people are gay and autistic? You can't just show a chart generalizing that trans people commit more crime, and then have a tantrum when people think you're trying to demonize them

I gather that not only is the existence of 'gender' still being pushed by at least one poster, so is the idea that 'masculine' and 'feminine' are real.

All three are grammatical terms used to stereotype and diminish human complexity.

I think I'll read The Female Eunuch again again, it hasn't been reshelved since the last time.

Is it sixth formers' reading week or something?

Your tantrums aren't arguments. You've said things that people just fundamentally disagree with, and can't seem to square that. I disagree with you on what might or might not be prejudiced, or offensive. It's mostly opinion and personal feelings you're bringing.

I never said they are real, they're descriptions like any other word. Most women aren't attracted to 'feminine' men for instance. And you're pushing gender norms yourself when you complain about men wearing dresses.

men in dresses fine, men in minis, stocking and suspenders (outside of a nightclub or similar) not fine and if they are performing some weird made up sexual caricature of womanhood then runs for the hills regardless of what they are wearing

It wasn't over sexual assault
Safety was part of it, but so were comfort, privacy, and increased spatial and social freedom.
it wasn't through feminist activism
You've obviously never heard of the Ladies Sanitary Association, and US equivalents.

People hating their own bodies is typically treated as mental/emotional/psychological struggles, because it affects them mentally. That's what gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are.

I doubt most people are comfortable in any public restroom. Many people actively avoid them.
I don't agree that men and women in the same toilets is a safety issue, especially since they aren't security zones.