Isn’t AGP also what every woman experiences when they get dressed up & feel good about themselves?

[Theboredpanda]

I have no agenda here. I’ve always just been interested in exploring other perspectives of debates…although I’m sure this particular thought will get flamed on here and end up very one-sided indeed 🤣
I don’t believe every trans woman has AGP, but I believe a significant proportion do. And I’ve always considered that proportion to be creepy, I feel anger at the fact these men get to walk around, at least in some circles, socially accepted as women, just so they can satisfy a sexual fetish. However, I was thinking about how I feel as a woman who’s comfortable and happy about being a woman when I get dressed up in my favourite sexy outfit and put on some makeup. It makes me feel sexy. Not sexually aroused but I do feel sexy. Is that vastly different to what a trans woman feels like when they get dressed up and look (at least in their eyes) like a woman? Could it be that it’s either not AGP and we all feel sexy when we know we look good as the gender we are or want to be…or everyone’s a bit AGP when they think they look sexy because they therefore feel sexy? Or is this a totally unoriginal thought that’s already been troped out by TRAs and actually there is a huge difference??

Well I don't get a stiffy when I see myself in my undies.

Nice try, mate.

Most men who identify as trans are now in the AGP category. And even those who are gay/homosexual are making a fetish out of womanhood itself.

A fetish is a fixation on certain items, objects, clothing, scenarios with which one becomes totally pre-occupied and driven to encounter or attain.

"Yes, exactly. Which is why, until the sexist (including sexist paraphilia) reasons have gone away, it is reasonable to treat any man in a dress with suspicion."

People's fetishes aren't going to go away. Penalizing men who are feminine and wear dresses, despite supposedly knowing that most of them aren't predators and many are even gay, is not only stupid, but it will likely increase feminine boys becoming trans, if they feel judged and unaccepted for their feminine preferences.

"It sucks, but there you go. Best thing men can to do get past this is to help us get rid of the sexist ideas men have about women and women's lives, so the issue goes away altogether."

No kind of prejudice is going to go away, so why single out sexism? It's like saying "we need to get rid of racist ideas about black people". No one is obligated to solve bigotry, people are obligated to not be bigots themselves. And accusations of sexism, racism etc, at this point are so casual that a lot of the time I don't even agree it's legitimate bigotry. So certain things you find sexist might be stupid from my perspective.

"Already answered that one son. Do keep up!"

You didn't answer how it's your business if men alter their bodies to look feminine. That's bodily autonomy.

"To me, people poncing around talking about their "masculine" and "feminine" side and dressing accordingly is as outdated as people talking about their humours being out of balance and eating extra horseradish to raise their blood, or having their horoscopes cast to make sure they conceive on an auspicious date."

You think they're sexist, you you think it's okay to stereotype men wearing dresses as predatory. That's the opposite of standing against sexist norms. If it's okay for women to wear dresses without question but not men, that's resulting in sexist stereotyping.

You're comments calling people 'genderists' and that you're so above ideas about femininity and masculinity just make you like like a pompous academic with your head up your own ass. I don't think masculinity or femininity are tangible things, it's short hand to describe thing. Kind of like you can describe something as ethereal, or romantic, or gothic. And masculinity and femininity play a role in many people's attractions. Most people who are attracted to men tend to like some degree of what could be described as masculinity, personality wise or in terms of appearance.

But none of that actually had anything to do with the subject of demonizing men wearing dresses and the way that conflicts with being 'concerned' about feminine males being trans'd. You can't care that much about feminine boys if you send the message to them that wearing a dress is rightffully met with scorn and assumptions of being a predator.

'Many gay men have worn dresses'
I don't know what kind of gay men you interact with, Skywinn.
It seems pretty homophobic to associate dress-wearing with gay men.

Thats a gross misrepresentation of what posie said.
She was talking about drag story time. She was talking about the fact the the original American founder was convicted of pedophilia and how highly inappropriate most of these drag queens are dressed and behaved, along with their inappropriate websites that are linked to in all their promo material. And thats before we talk about their names.
As for assessing the risks that men pose we all know that men are stronger than women and children we also know that men commit 98% of all sex attacks and we also know that men who identify as women are 5× more likely to be sex offenders than men who identify as men (see graph from ons and doj)
Any man entering a female single sex space is a predator as he is breaching womens boundaries and social boundaries, he knows that hes not legally allowed in there and he knows that he isn't wanted or welcome there yet still he enters knowing the fear, alarm and distress his presence will cause. That single choice that man makes proves exactly what sort of man he is.

Many of them do. Some don't, some do. Many drag queens are gay.

What's wrong with men wearing dresses? Do you support gender stereotypes only?

Skywinn · Today 14:20
.. you seem like a bit of a prick..

You have such a way with words, Skywinn😄

Dammit I forgot the graph

PSA. Fetish is a paraphilia. Most paraphilias tend to cluster/overlap. The common feature is the reliance on non.consensual participation of others - be that voyeurs or exhibitionists, flashers, paedophiles, or people into frotting.

The details are nor as important as the breaking or bending of taboos, transgressing of boundaries, and at root, the rapey excitement of unsettling, frightening, confusing or distressing others.

A fair number of men enjoy causing women distress. In various ways.

"She was talking about drag story time. She was talking about the fact the the original American founder was convicted of pedophilia and how highly inappropriate most of these drag queens are dressed and behaved"

She said that men who wear dresses is a link to being a pedo. The circumstances of when and where it was said doesn't change the statement. If you're concerned about feminine boys becoming confused and even becoming trans, why on earth do you think it's sensible to generalize that men wearing dresses is a sign of being predatory? They already feel insecure enough from people just making fun of it or saying it's a bad thing, let alone throwing criminal activity into the mix. That is a sure fire way to encourage lack of acceptance and repression.

Also, how is the founder being a pedo in any way relevant to drag? Have you noticed that when men wearing shirts and trousers get into trouble for sex cromes, no one cares or talks about their clothes? Yet if a drag artist commits a crime, then suddenly is okay to make dress sense relevant? I also looked into the whole drag thing, and it in some cases people were overreacting. Some fo the men I saw were fully dresses, and not doing anything inherently 'adult'. I don;t have a problem with men wearing dresses in from of children any more than any type of clothing, because I don't support pushing sexist stereotypes.

No thats a lie.
The supreme court was absolutely clear that I'd any man is allowed into a space it is not single sex therfore if a space is single sex noone of the opposite sex (however they identify) is permitted in.
The men who chose to ignore the law by entering the female single sex spaces are intending to break the law (trespass, harassement, voyeurism and indecent exposure) Ergo your argument about intent falls down as his mear presence is a crime regardless of what he may or may not do.
Why are you so determined to paint the predatory criminal behaviour of some men as OK

I do think that's the case when you demonize mentally ill/autistic people and make their problems about you. That is a rather self absorbed and self righteous attitude 😊

Many people like to cause distress. Women included.

I'm not sure I believe that chart nor do I really understand what the conclusion is. Are you saying that most trans people are predators?

"Why are you so determined to paint the predatory criminal behaviour of some men as OK"

Men aren't predators for being in the women's toilets. Being a predator is predatory. It requires action and intent. Appealing to the law is shallow, because laws change, and many of them are wrong to begin with. I'm sure there are many laws you disagree with.

Just a reminder that the thread is about Autogynophillia, not about men wearing skirts.
Which reminds me - Happy Burns Night everyone, and remember:
A Man’s a Man for a’ That

And you assume people are those things because...?

Because unless someone is guilty of doing something wrong, I don't assume they are criminals. That's usually how it should work

Which you can't tell just by looking at a man wearing a dress.

A drag "artist" who specifically set up an organisation to allow him a convicted pedophile access children and normalise overtly sexulised dress and behaviour to them is something that needs to be spoken about.
I dont want men behaving in a predatory way to be accepted.
Men in drag are part of the trans umbrella according to stonewall so take up any complaints with them.

I would suggest one difference lies in whether or not a person demands to be treated as if they are female or not while wearing those dresses. While we cannot always know what is a male person’s motivation to wear dresses, if they are demanding that anyone treats them as if they are female while dressed that way can be considered as further segmenting the group into whether that male person might have a paraphilia involving them being treated as, or just dressed as a female.

It isn’t as clear cut as you are attempting to frame it. However, like the main principles of safeguarding that allow for sex segregated provisions, if we cannot establish the motivation for the male person’s choice of attire not including them in a female single sex provision goes a long way to protecting female people from being utilised this way.

There does have to be some way also to prevent male people from exposing children to their paraphilia. If that means that when in contact with a child a male person restricts their attire to not be wearing dresses and skirts cut to fit female bodies and fits the guidelines that all people professionally in contact with people should follow, I am sure that is something a male person shouldn’t feel is too restrictive to do. If they feel it is too restrictive, then this could be seen as a red flag for safeguarding children.

Good reminder.

I don't want men to be predatory around children either. But being predatory has nothing to do with wearing a dress. I saw some instances where they weren't wearing inappropriate clothes and weren't in a strip club, burlesque house etc, and people still complained specifically about the dress. Sending the message that men wearing dresses is wrong is not going to help feminine boys in any way.

What dont you understand in the graph
And yes all prison data shows that men who identify as trans are more likely to be sex offenders than any other group of people including men generally and just to be clear that data is shown to be consistent over multiple countries.