Isn’t AGP also what every woman experiences when they get dressed up & feel good about themselves?

[Theboredpanda]

I have no agenda here. I’ve always just been interested in exploring other perspectives of debates…although I’m sure this particular thought will get flamed on here and end up very one-sided indeed 🤣
I don’t believe every trans woman has AGP, but I believe a significant proportion do. And I’ve always considered that proportion to be creepy, I feel anger at the fact these men get to walk around, at least in some circles, socially accepted as women, just so they can satisfy a sexual fetish. However, I was thinking about how I feel as a woman who’s comfortable and happy about being a woman when I get dressed up in my favourite sexy outfit and put on some makeup. It makes me feel sexy. Not sexually aroused but I do feel sexy. Is that vastly different to what a trans woman feels like when they get dressed up and look (at least in their eyes) like a woman? Could it be that it’s either not AGP and we all feel sexy when we know we look good as the gender we are or want to be…or everyone’s a bit AGP when they think they look sexy because they therefore feel sexy? Or is this a totally unoriginal thought that’s already been troped out by TRAs and actually there is a huge difference??

It was clinicians at the Tavistock, including gay clinicians that formally alerted to the fact that nascently gay or lesbian children were being 'transed'.

Effeminate gay men constitute a large grouping of those adopting trans identities

So why are some people citing men wearing dresses as predatory in itself? That seems like a good way to encourage feminine boys to feel even less accepted.

In which case, demonizing feminine men is quite stupid, isn't it? If you're so concerned about feminine boys being trans'd, it doesn't really make sense to generalize that their femininity/dress sense is a sing of being a pervert. That may well make them more likely to not accept themselves.

Apparently men can't wear what they like, since many people have a problem with them wearing dresses.

Because men claiming they are actually women is plain insulting and negates the integrity of the female sex by suggesting being female is just role playing stereotypes and mannerisms.

A white person adopting blackface because they identify with black culture ( whatever that is) would be monstered, but apparently a man performing womanface is acceptable.

How do you know why a man wearing a dress just by looking at him, and why are you dictating how men should wear clothing in the first place?

You realize that part of the reason why some feminine boys transition is because they are sent the massage that it's not okay for men and boys to wear dresses, right? A man wearing a standard dress that many women wear is not ;sex toy clothes'.

You seems to have a problem with men wearing dresses, unless it's 'styled' in a way you approve.

None of us can wear totally what we like. We all have to conform to a certain degree with social rules and norms of what is considered appropriate in public places; though a man wearing a skirt is not in itself totally socially unacceptable - even if some people may ridicule them for it.

Though some men I see around my city are quite clearly sexually motivated by wearing women's clothing - and they like to draw attention to themselves in the process. A man doing this in a female only space would give even greater cause for discomfort. Women and girls tend to have had a lifetime of experience of being subject tco male sexual proclivities and fetishistic behaviours.

I personally wouldn't care about someone doing blackface either. But more to the point, gender dysphoria is an actual mental health issue to be addressed, people thinking they are black doesn't appear to be. And being trans isn't suggesting being female is just cosplaying. Most of them know what biology is, hence why many of them want to change their bodies. Find real issue to complain about instead of being offended by other people's preferences.

I think what most women have a problem with is men performing their sexual fetishes in front of them, not a man wearing skirts or dresses per se, The vibe given off by a man doing this for sexual reasons is very distinctive.

"and they like to draw attention to themselves in the process." Women do this as well when they wear revealing our glamourous clothing. And many men who wear hyper feminine clothing are gay. So assuming they are a predator interested in women is not only incorrect, is prejudice based on clothing.

Except that's not what most people's complaints started as. First the generalization is about men wearing dresses, and when criticized for that, it shifts to things like "we're not okay with men wearing lingerie and masturbating in public", which is a complete shift from how it started. Posie Parker specifically cited men wearing dresses as being a link to being a pedo. Shockingly, a lot of people don;t think that's a very sensible thing to say, nor is it going to make feminine boys feel more accepted.

'Being trans' is simply a way of framing one's discomfort or distress using the language and frames of reference of gender ideology/gender identity theory - it is not about being a unique category of human being. People who adopt trans identities are either male or female like everyone else.

I agree, though, that dysphoric feelings are by definition a pathology though not an identity - unless one identifies with one's pathology.

"The vibe given off by a man doing this for sexual reasons is very distinctive." What even amounts to 'sexual reasons'? I;ve seen gay men who dress hyper feminine and some clearly get a somewhat sexual thrill from it too, and can be very vain about how good they look. It's none of your business what people think or behave if they aren't actually committing a crime.

A man does not have to masturbate in public to give off sexualised vibes. It's the motive behind the dress wearing that is sensed and felt - even if the dress or skirt is not particularly revealing or 'provocative'. I come across such men fairly frequently where I live and they always seem very absorbed in their fantasy of themselves and oblivious as to the actual responses or pereceptions of those around them.

"You don't know why a man wears a dress unless he tells you"

Yes, exactly. Which is why, until the sexist (including sexist paraphilia) reasons have gone away, it is reasonable to treat any man in a dress with suspicion.

It sucks, but there you go. Best thing men can to do get past this is to help us get rid of the sexist ideas men have about women and women's lives, so the issue goes away altogether.

You really should read my posting history BTW, I've done all this before and in much greater depth than you have got to yet.

"How is it your business what someone thinks or does with their body? Anyone has bodily autonomy to change their body if they want."

Already answered that one son. Do keep up!

"The words masculine or feminine aren't going anywhere, because it's a simple way to describe things. Many people actively like to embrace things because of their feminine or masculine qualities. And the last part isn't even true, if you think it's okay to assume malicious intentions when a man is wearing a dress."

Oh boy, you really are stuck in that genderist mindset box aren't you!

"Feminine" and "masculine" qualities are not real things. They are just echoes of society's sexism (and what is "feminine" or "masculine" changes over time and place as well).

I mean, you can continue to treat them as real actual things if you want to, but that doesn't mean I have to. I see them as old fashioned sexist ideas that should be challenged and laughed at.

To me, people poncing around talking about their "masculine" and "feminine" side and dressing accordingly is as outdated as people talking about their humours being out of balance and eating extra horseradish to raise their blood, or having their horoscopes cast to make sure they conceive on an auspicious date.

Being trans isn't an ideology. And it's not making a statement about you. Most trans people don't seem to think that men and women need to conform to gender norms. So it seems to be a hollow complaint.

Most women are very aware of a man who is driven by a sexual fantasy. He gives off a certain vibe, as I've said. If he's doing this in public -unless he breaches certain boundaries then that is not a crime - even if it is still exhibitionistic; but if he attempts to breach someone's personal space or 'female only' boundaries then he is in violation of what is acceptable

LOL tell me you are a man without telling me you are a man!

Women (the actual ones) spend pretty much our entire lives being encrouched upon by men socially, sexually, and professionally in ways that are nowhere near committing a crime, but nevertheless have a noticable impact on us and over time serve to drag us down.

The idea that unless someone is committing a crime they can't possibly be hurting us is just laughable.

Obviously AGP exists. It's one of the most studied, best documented phenomenon in human sexuality. (as I mentioned). Not only are there hundreds of studies on it, a number of transexual/transgender males freely admit to it and write about their experiences. No one seriously doubts that it exists. The point of my post was to recentre the debate on that fact.

If you want to argue that we should call AGP something else because it's too clinical or connotational, there's room for productive debate. Likewise, if you want to argue that that condition, whatever we decide to call it, should be de-stigmatised as a variation in normal (male) sexual expression, I'm more than happy to engage.

Arguing whether the true percentage is 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% (or more likely), essentially 100%, is not likely to be very productive, nor is trying to determine a population within the heterosexual trans identified males cohort that are 'true trans' because they're not fetishist.

However, trying to claim there's no such thing as AGP is simply silly and frankly exposes you as troll, as clearly you're not naive enough on topic to be so misinformed.

Hahahaha - I'm sorry, WHAT?!!!

Crikey, that's a new one.

Or, maybe, an old one . . .

Like, as someone said upthread, how some male authors write about women breasting boobily downstairs.

Queer Theory and post modernism are indeed ideological constructs.

We all tend to view the world, and ourselves, through certain frameworks. The concept of 'trans' is a framework for understanding oneself and the world. One that postulates post-modernistic ideas about the self and society, as defined by people such as Judith Butler.

'Trans' is a concept - not a reality.....nobody can change sex....and 'gender' is also a highly debatable concept with no consenus on what it even means.

Yet conforming to cross sex stereotypes or imagined feelings seems to be the very definition of being trans.

Don't be stupid. Of course it's an ideology.

If you believe a trans woman is a women, or even just meaningful closer to being a women than other men are,

1. you are saying that being a woman is something other than simply being of the female sex. And that is imposing your new definition, a definition made by a man, onto all women.
2. You are saying that the history of the oppression of the female half of the species by the male, and the rights, protections and opportunities that women now have as a mitigation to that, somehow wasn'y anything to do with our sex at all, but because of something in our minds, something that men can also have
3. you are saying that being female is not a significant factor in our lives, not something by which we may want to understand and define ourselves, but this "womannyness of the mind" is.

An ideology is a belief about how the world works and how society should be organised because of it. When you decide to believe that the reality and consequences of sex are insignificant to individuals and to society, that we should still divide people into men and women but now based on their mind, and that female people should not have the right to define themselves as different to male people who claim to be the same as us - yep, that pretty much fits the bill as an ideology.

There are plenty of Queer activists and men with trans identities who have said that AGP or pornography is what made them 'trans'