Is anyone on here trans-inclusive?

[plinkyplonk123]

Hi everyone, this is just a quick post to ask if anybody else on here is trans inclusive? I know I’m definitely in the minority here but I just wanted to see.

They’re not unsafe from “trans people” they are unsafe from the male sex, including those ones who say they are women.

I have one trans friend. They are lovely. They are one of the 8% who have had the surgery. I know one detransitioner but not well.

I feel strongly that these two people I know have not had the support they need from the medical profession. When you hear their story it's frankly shocking. I think people who feel at odds with their body need significant help and support from medical profession and they don't get it. They get medical intervention which causes a lot of physical pain.

On the cultural side I agree with poster who mentioned stereotypes. I think if society was more accepting of variety people might feel more comfortable expressing themselves in how they present in a way that suits them.

No, we understand. The thing is, transwomen are men. Transwomen have the right to be fully included in society to the extent that any human is. We're all under an obligation to respect the rights of others and obey the law. However, as they are men, transwomen don''t have the right to access a certain very limited number of spaces in society that are reserved for the use of women only. I would really love to see society develop a more expansive, tolerant, and inclusive understanding of what "man" means, so that it also covers those men who wish to present and live as women.

There's no evidence the inclusion of transwomen in women's spaces has resulted in an increase of violence against women.

As long as I’m not forced to play their make believe

And there’s no evidence that including males with a trans identity in male spaces has resulted in an increase of violence towards those men. Why do you hate females with a trans identity so much? If including males in females spaces is what you want, surely the other side is including females in male spaces? If male people are unsafe in male spaces, wouldn’t female people be even more unsafe? Hasn’t a female with a trans identity just been raped because she was put in a male ward? Doesn’t her safety count or is it all about the men for you?

You're really saying there is no evidence that the inclusion of males in female spaces has led to an increase in violence against females? That's what you're really saying? Common sense tells one that any time you put fully intact males in female spaces where women and girls are naked/semi state of undress and vulnerable, attacks happen. This is, quite literally, why the sexes are segregated for getting changed and toileting.

You are absolutely wrong. WiSpa, Isla Bryson, Kate Dolatowski (sp?), numerous names. You simply have not done research on this.

You also forget that it's not just about safety. It's about privacy and dignity away from the male gaze. Women flee to the ladies to escape a man. We cry. Seek help. We miscarry there. We change out at the sinks to go clubbing. We wash mooncups and blood-stained underwear at the sink, and baby sick off our blouses. We are in a semi state of dress/fully naked. We don't want males there, do you understand that?

Safeguarding principles are not focused on only violence though. It is about minimising harm to the people who the provision is created for.

Either way, how many additional female people need to be subject to harm by male people with transgender identities before you fully support those male people being excluded from female single sex provisions?

1? We are well past that.
2? 5? 10? 100?

Even if you limited it to just ‘violence’, how many?

There IS evidence that women and girls have experienced violence in spaces meant to be female single sex spaces in any case.

I am 👍🏳️‍⚧️

Thank you for the laugh this morning. I had a rubbish day yesterday.

Brave travellers indeed. 😂

From Twitter (though I'd recommend using Google, not Grok to check):

"Once again, here is the partial list of trans-identified men (transwomen) who have sexually assaulted women. Run any of these names through Grok and see exactly what stupid, privileged women like this are supporting. Michael Maria Pentholm, Karen White, Katie Dolatowski, Jessica Winfield, Tara Desousa, Janiah Monroe, Kristen Lukess, Lisa Hauxwell, Laken McKay, Aliea Rose Brown, Paula Witherspoon, Davina Ayrton, Johanna Wolf, Hanna Tubbs, Christopher Hambrook, Dakota Nieves, Tarah Jo Morgan, Marie Dean, Jessica Brennan, Rachel Smith, Marcia Walker, Synthia China Blast, Michelle Winter, Paris Bregazzi, Melissa Wilson, Barbie Kardashian, Jessica Smith, Wolfgang Schmidtd, Chloe Thompson, Denen Anderson, Kadence Pinder, Beth Hannay, Leah Harvey, Julie Marshall, Blaine Maney, Amber Thorden, Evi Amati, Babs Longmire, Rachel Fenton, Jorven Seren, Claire Goodier, Kim Marie Johannson, Steven Hayes, Jacinta Brooks, Alexander Eshawn Lions, Ashley Winter, Steph Ricciardi, Vicky Green, Ella Davies, Melissa Addis, Madilyn Harks, Jessica Marie Hann, Michelle Martinez, Nicole Summers, Shauna Patricia Smith, Evelyn Young, Claire Goodier, Allison Woolbert, Nur Ahmed, Vyvyenne Ward, Laura McCann, Lisa Jones, Rayne Aloysius Constantine Rose Bennett, Louise Foord, Robert Glanowski, Lily Bate, Alyssa Celusta, Sora Kuykendall, Lydia Helena Vision, Ava Jones, Alex Ray Scott, Diego Melendez, Paris Green, Tiffany Scott, Zoe Lynes, Vicky Green, Pauline Long, Chloe Walker, Toni Prince, Lana Laws, Christyl Knight, Carrie Cooper, Jasmine Hill, Diamond Blount, Nicola Florida, Dawn Love, Stacey Pool, Alexis Herschell, Scarlet Shadows, Karen Louise Lawson, Nicola Cope, Gina Owen, Kayleigh Louise Woods, Claire Darbyshire, Kira Leverton, Kathleen Carpenter, Donna Perry, Karen Jones, Carol Lea, Michelle Lewin, Alanna Nicole Partin, Yostin Murillo, Peter Selby, Wendy Jones, Rose Whitby, Daryl Graves, Diana Guevara, Jason Croker, Jody Matthew Burke, Patricia Trimble, Klaus T, Sally Dixon, Milan Wash, Adree Edmo, Jayden Dean, Paul Denyer, Bruno Meirelles, Pandora Electra, Robert Gordon Cummins, Danielle Rose Gemini, Amber McLaughlin, Brooke Lyn Sonia, Nonnie Lotusflower, Tianne Miller, Narsimha Bichappa Shirvati, Brandy Wood, Isla Bryson, Kelly McSean, Michelle Renee Lamb, Andrea Balcer, Ketan Shende, Serenity Alana Mann, Sacho Samson, Harryetta Thompson, Jenna Hansen, Jane Beck, Audrey Robinson, Lexi-Rose Crawford, Carissa Marie Radcliffe, Jolene Charisma Starr, Zara Jade, Rhiley Carlson, Claire Fox, Robert William Perry II, Tanya Howes, Loana Luna, Dwight Chisolm, Amy George, Stuart Bulling, Lorena Santana, Christopher Williams, Alyssa Christine Trenchard, AK, Danielle Edney, Julie Shepherd, Izzabella Raymundo, Stephanie Hayden, Sophie Louise Carter, Autumn Cordellioné, Katana Paris, Shauna Kavanagh, Zera Lola Zombie, Nicole Rose Campbell, April Welsh, Tânia Ferrinho, Scarlet Moon Shadows, Laura Miller, Thorsten Heinz, Tara Pearsall, Adam McDonald, Samantha Norris, Abigail Waller, Rachel Queen Burton, Maria Childers, Xenia Jade Millar, Anonymous in Mumbai, Krystel Lauzon, Amber FayeFox Kim, Ash Cooper, Natalie Pershall, Kazumi Watanabe, Claire Caballero, Jacqui McWilliams, Sabrina/Morrigan Hetke, Jo White, July Justine Shelby, Joanna Evans, Louise Thomas, Miquel Toni Riera Prats, Ömer (Lara K), Emma Davies, Lexi Secker, Pierre Parsons, Claire Anderson, Michell Silva Perez, Michelle Blessent, Cassidy Honsinger, Elijah Thomas Berryman, Sean Windingland, Duane Owen, Dana Rivers, Alfie Howe, Marceline Harvey, Chloee-Mae Danvers, Jamie Kim Belladonna, Catarina da Lapa, Renee Mills, Aria Peers, an unnamed Norwegian, Danielle Marie Whitebird, Makayla Craig, Angel Hill, Farin Kinar, Reiyn Keohane, Michelle Ward, Levana Ballouz, Francesca Bartkus, María López Barrera, Autumn Tulip Harper, Richard Kenneth Cox, Oliver smith, Rebecca Clark, Dakota Rose Austin, Catherine Lynn, Naomi O’Brien, Nicola Watson, Bunny Autumn Colasimone, Tiffany Aching and Sophie KoKo."

Is that enough of a list for you, to justify females having our hard won safe female only single sex change rooms and toilets, that our foremother feminists fought so hard to achieve for us, @Gretel346 ?

Anyone can present how ever they like. I don’t care. I’m not interested.

they can’t, however, change sex.

I’m entitled to single sex spaces. The reasons for that are my own but the law says I am entitled to them.

I expect trans identifying women and trans identifying men to obey the law.

The other aspect to your position that you have not even considered that shows the flaw in your position is that even women simply discussing this topic in the public sphere have experienced violence against them.

How can you say that ”There's no evidence the inclusion of transwomen in women's spaces has resulted in an increase of violence against women” when women are being subjected to violence just by speaking to other women about this issue? Or have you missed this?

Basically just saying that you don’t demonise the trans-community as a whole. You don’t have to be completely in support of everything and obviously people shouldn’t have to feel unsafe.

You absolutely had to be completely in support of everything, no dissent of any kind was allowed as plenty of women who lost jobs/livelihoods/friends found out and there are plenty of TRAs who fervently wish that this was still the case.
And please, give it a break with the "oh I'm such a minority, me" thing, every time this happens all the claqueurs immediately turn up.

It’s complicated. I do demonise people. I love it. I do it a lot. With every fibre of my being in fact. Slice me to the core and that’d be me – demonise, demonise, demonise.

But I also see myself as inclusive. I’ve worked hard at it. Obviously there are inclusive things I’ll never be able to do, such as including people. But when it comes down to it I’m an includer.

Really?! You haven't read newspapers or watched the news for a very long time then.

Err, that's not how data works.

Listing names of offenders isn't evidence of an increase in crime.

That's not evidence of an increase in crime because of trans inclusion.

@Gretel346 any chance you could answer my points? Thanks so much.

I’m trans inclusive. They deserve the same rights as everyone else. But trans rights don’t trump women’s rights. Women have the right to single sex changing rooms, sports, refuges, prisons, etc.

Ah, it all hinges on the word "increase", I see. We used to want to reduce and ideally eliminate assaults on women but now it seems not having an increase will do.

The evidence is that transgender individuals are more likely to have been committed of sexual crime

if we accept that transgender people have always existed and that until now they have been able to enter the places of their choice we would not expect any increase in crime in recent years related to transgender people

this still leaves us to say either there should be no more single sex spaces and women should take the risk or transgender males should excluded form women’s spaces because there is no logic to just including transgender males with their known higher offending rate

we do know however that mixed sex spaces do lead to higher rates of sexual offences

The law says no such thing yet because it hasn't been tested nor has any government interpretation been officially accepted by government.

That tea took a long, adventurous and difficult journey, I think you should have compassion for it.