Well this was totally predictable

[OverlyFragrant]

Woman identifying as a man is 'raped in all-male psychiatric ward' https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15461027/Transgender-man-raped-male-psychiatric-hospital-ward-court-hears.html?ito=native_share_article-bottom

Shame on these men and shame on the NHS for placing this poor women directly in the hands of predators.

You can't change mental health wards in the sense that you are going to have a bunch of people in them who are immediately going to identify your sex.

Even is you have sufficient staff to prevent rape or sexual assault, or if the patients are not physically capable of it, you still have a bunch of vulnerable mentally ill men who have identified your sex. What happens then? Do you gaslight them and tell these mentally ill men that what they see with their own eyes is not true? Tell them they must lie about your sex, and remember to do so despite possible memory issues? And what if they refuse? Do you punish them? Discharge them? What if they are incapable of remembering or lying like that? Discharge them too? Remove them to a less optimum ward? Do you ignore the protected characteristics of their belief? And what of their privacy and dignity? Should that be ignored? It certainly sounds like a very dangerous situation for mentally ill men.

Yes. You can see from the historical 'trans supporting' policy, and the record of how it was consulted and developed, how activists have shaped the policy and effectively hold responsibility for this outcome.

It is a direct response to the requirement for always listening to ‘lived experience’ which also favours activists’ point of view. Plus tends to ignore the ‘lived experience’ of other impacted groups - like women.

What happens then? Do you gaslight them and tell these mentally ill men that what they see with their own eyes is not true?

In my own Trust (acute hospital not MH) , that explicitly was the policy yes. If a patient asked a question or objected, the staff had to tell them there were no people of the opposite sex on the ward. Staff were threatened with disciplinary procedures and reporting to the police for a hate crime if they didn't gaslight the other patients.

And what if they refuse? Do you punish them? Discharge them?

In one of the worst policies I saw (I want to say it was Doncaster but I may be wrong) the policy said that if a patient or their family member refused care from a trans HCP they should be made to apologise and comply; if they still refused they could be discharged and refused further care.

So yes, staff and other patients would explicitly be punished if they didn't comply with the wants of the transperson.

I have a lot of frustration at mumsnetters for dehumanising and disrespecting trans kids, because it has very real effects.

Another trans boy has died by suicide because of bullying - and the misogynistic effects of rape culture.

When minorities are dehumanised, there is never any shortage of violent boys and men who will consider them fair game for all kinds of violence. They're usually sexualised as well - even children.

This is what's currently happening in schools. Trans children are targeted for sexual and physical violence, and told they deserve it. That it doesn't count. Their transitions framed as sexually-motivated, even though about half of trans kids are same-gender attracted.

My family endured this for years. Entire classes who would shout abuse at my kid, who hasn't had any hormones or surgery, just lives as himself. He was threatened on an almost daily basis with sexual.assault, forcibly touched and abused. Thank God for the gay teachers in particular who looked out for him. I still don't know how he survived.

I do know what it did to his exam chances. And his mental health.

Yet he's still trans. Even after all that, having walked through fire every day, he survived and is living as himself.

Terf propaganda enabled that abuse. It provided a justification for the violence - he was told so.

Fighting rape culture involves fighting for trans people too. They are on the front line of misogynistic violence. Especially school children.

With another trans child having died, I fully expect any terf sympathy to be accompanied by misgendering, horrible remarks about his parents, point-scoring and victim-blaming. Every. Single. Time.

It is not dehumanising to refer to people as the sex that they are. It's just fact. Fact will continue to exist no matter how much you fight it.

It would have been far preferable to give these children treatment to help them accept reality. Rather than affirm a delusion and expect everyone else to play along. For lots of reasons they won't do this. Truth matters.

Given your user name, you are up to your neck in it and are going to find it very hard to accept that there are harms in pretending children are actually the opposite sex. I feel for you and your child. I hope you both you get the support you need.

This is absolutely shocking.

i know whistleblowing is very hard, but i am surprised we have not seen more medical professionals speak out against this. Particularly doctors and those in management positions, because surely it is obvious how dangerous and callous it is.

People did respect her identity. And it put her in danger. Are you ok with that? Your ideology let this poor woman get attacked.

School should address bullying behaviour by all children and act strongly on any sexual assaults. Sadly abuse of girls in high school is so common that it has almost become normalised; 98% of girl report having been sexually harassed or assaulted by the time they leave school. Identifying as a boy does not enable girls to opt out of such abuse so I hope your school safeguarded your daughter and did not allow her to use the boys toilets or changing rooms. They needed to do so to protect the boys privacy and dignity too.

I am concerned that the Approved Mental Health Professional made an application to a named male picu, for a very mentally unwell woman. If she had identified as a dog would they have admitted her to a kennel? I am horrified at what has happened to the psychiatric services, in service to a mens rights movement. We have men in wards for vulnerable, mentally ill women and women in male wards, all from self ID, which has no legal basis!
Most AMHP's are social workers and social work England still requests"pronouns" in communications.
This needs to stop.

That’s hilarious.

I did whistleblow, 4 times, the first time pre Forstater (which was terrifying). The result each time was that the policy had been discussed and agreed with relevant stakeholders (i.e. Stonewall and the staff LGBTQI+ group) and that I needed to go on the trans training to better understand the needs of transpeople.

The last time when I asked why they'd put a trans IDing teenage girl in an adult male ward but not a non trans IDing teenage girl, the Head of Safeguarding ( yes really ) said it would be up to 'him' to choose. Management are utterly captured, and so are a lot of doctors and senior nurses, blinded to the reality of their 'kindness' and far removed from the nitty gritty of how this plays out at ward level, or of having to look the patients who are affected in the eye. Front line staff are not listened to.

Your attempts to blame feminist women who believe in the importance of biological sex for violence and abuse against people who identify as “trans” are completely unconvincing. What kind of filter bubble you must move around in.

That’s awful.

In one of the worst policies I saw (I want to say it was Doncaster but I may be wrong) the policy said that if a patient or their family member refused care from a trans HCP they should be made to apologise and comply; if they still refused they could be discharged and refused further care.

That ^ is a criminal act of assault and each and every HCP who engaged in that act could (should along with the board who signed it off) end up with a criminal record and loss of professional registration.

I will bet it breached the Trusts own :
• policy on informed consent and
• policy on managaging threatening behavior and violence.

This is truly terrible

Your blame game.

MN who object and explain why they believe that placing a female in a locked MH unit with males is labled "dehumanising".

Be honest would you place your female child on what should be a male ward?

If you cant or will not be honest all you are trying to do is justify rape in that situation.

Are you honest enough to try fill out a risk assessment for a female patient who is being placed on what should be a male only ward?

What would you expect to see documented to prove that the patient and the people in contact with her and the allocates unit the has been assessed?

Staff should ensure that they take an objective and evidence-based approach to assessing any potential risk of
● Rape or
● Sexual Assault
and vulnerabilities that could arise because of
• a female being admitted on to what should be a male only ward
in accordance with their gender identity rather than their sex.
PATIENT NAME
SEX :
■ female
□ male
GENDER
□
WARD :
□ placed in female ward
■ placed in male ward
□ placed in mixed sex ward

RISK: Rape
Defined in "UK" law as....
Outcomes:
• patient is the victim of the rape
• patient is the rapist.
• patient is a witness to a rape
• other

Risk reduction : victim
Vulnerability reduction (How can a patient prevent their own rape):

Start with what the policy or safeguarding options you should recomend to be documented?

Risk reduction : rapist
Vulnerability reduction

How about here?
What risk would present?
How do they differ if the patient is female and not male?
Would pretending she is male when she is female change the risk profile?

Just so as you know "mate" I use the word females because I don't like to only say women as it leaves out girls.
And when I say we care about females, I'm including trans men in that. This trans man should have been put on a women's only ward, this awful disgraceful attack would not have happened if they had been.

Here we go, click on show all attachments, it's the 'dealing with patients who refuse care due to prejudice' policy and it's Mid Yorks NHS Trust:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/gender_reassignment_andor_transg_127#incoming-2713992

A request for same sex care (not same 'gender' care) is seen as based in prejudice and framed as a demand that the patient must drop and apologise.

And @TransParentlyAnnoyed I agree there needs to be a better functioning justice system and better mental health care.
There also needs to be a much better move to educate males not to rape or attack.
You talk of "dehumanisation of minorities", which happens yes, but lying to vulnerable (or not as the case may be) people and telling them that wearing different clothes and calling themselves a different name literally changes them to the extent that society as a whole will see them as their new self is just as bad as dehumanisation. It's down right cruelty.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed would you have placed this individual on a male ward if it was your decision?

Assume the options available are a male ward or a female ward

100%.

Daily reminder that adult males have 162% the punch power (force) than adult females. No matter how any of them identify.

For this reason alone (and there are others), a risk reduction safeguarding approach dictates that we need segregation of the sexes in certain circumstances - e.g. on mental health wards.

(Fuuuckn hell)

Thanks for be brave and whistleblowing. 🌻

I mean basically this is saying any woman or girl who doesn't want to experience sexual assault is expressing 'prejudice'.

Rape culture, in other words.

Thank you for trying to safeguard these children and I'm so, so sorry you have been gaslit and coerced as a result of trying to do your job and protect patients.

The sooner NHS managers face criminal accountability the better. Hopefully the case of this poor woman raped on a male ward will be the first of many to result in these dangerous people getting fired.