Well this was totally predictable

[OverlyFragrant]

Woman identifying as a man is 'raped in all-male psychiatric ward' https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15461027/Transgender-man-raped-male-psychiatric-hospital-ward-court-hears.html?ito=native_share_article-bottom

Shame on these men and shame on the NHS for placing this poor women directly in the hands of predators.

Just checked. Nottingham trans NHS place still has link to WPATH SoC v8.

However ... there are only, apparently, 30 WPATH members in the UK.

I'm sure there used to be more.

https://archive.ph/iBmL1

Your choice of how to experience those questions and how uncomfortable you found them to read probably says more than anything regarding the tone in which they were written. I'll be explicit that 'you' in the following paragraph is a generic 'you', if that helps.

It is a fact that once you frame it as 'kind', to expect non believers to comply and submit themselves, you are choosing to be 'kind' to only one group, who can expect to be served, whose feelings and difference and needs matter, and enforcing service upon others who you have decided are not equal humans entitled to anything but to give to their betters. You have effectively separated people into those who are entitled to service without reciprocation, and those who must subordinate themselves and serve. You are also making decisions about removing consent from others. It doesn't tend to be an experience likely to lead to those forced to submit and serve loving the situation or the people forcing it upon them, unless they have a masochism kink and haven't done any 101 classes yet on consent.

There's other words for that. 'Kind' isn't one of them.

Mutual respect and tolerance would fix all of this.

The policy in this trust Was one of the worst we saw in the audit BECAUSE they’d consulted so widely and STILL concluded that women had no rights.

Remember the timings:
2021 Kent woman raped and NHS staff deny man was in the ward. It takes a year to get the CCTV. If they’d been open then maybe the trans man in the OP’s case might have been aware of the possible dangers

2022 This case in South London & Maudsley (SLAM) happens

2023 SLAM updates their trans policy making zero changes in response to the 2022 attack.

Thats not just incompetence that’s policy causing harm and covering up wrongdoing

Yes. They knew and understood the risks. They chose to go ahead.

I don't understand their logic all.

If they think mixed sex wards aren't a problem, why not save money and make all wards mixed sex?

Why do they think people want single sex wards? Do they think its an aesthetic thing?

When will all this end? Nottingham mh services sound bad but there are so many other Trusts which are the same. Another issue is the number of people claiming to be the opposite sex who are permanent users of mh services. If surgery and transition are the answer surely these people would be moving on and living fulfilling lives? Instead so many are on sickness benefits and using day centres etc for years. Granted they'd need support for a while but should become independent and happy. Unfortunately, some of these men who pretend to be women are making these facilities unsafe; not as serious as the alleged rape against the woman in this court case but still causing women distress.

I am not without sympathy for those women and girls who've been encouraged to identify as men - as a victim of child abuse I could easily have been talked into this because I hated the vulnerability of the female body and my own in particular. Thankfully this militant and extreme movement wasn't around when I was young.

My point was that the mail wasn’t the only place this was reported. I know the express isn’t much better than the mail, I’m not holding it up as an example of journalistic integrity.

how’s this?

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-mail/20260114/281865829861490

God, to think the Maudsley is still at it after all these years. In 1982 I went to the Maudsley about half a dozen times for what I think was called aversion therapy. I went to the Ladies and felt that immediate sense of relief that I was in a female only space, only to be confronted by a bloke in a dress and a bad wig. People using mh services are so vulnerable and sometimes afraid to complain. Just to add more irony, no one at the Maudsley or any other psychiatric service I went to, would believe that I'd been abused. This disbelief from mh professionals was very widespread then and still happens. Adding men who pretend to be women onto female wards is outrageous. As is putting a woman onto a male ward.

This is why I queried if she had insisted she be placed in a male ward, or if staff had decided it was where she should be because she ‘identified’ as male. (Of course my query has been completely derailed because I said I wouldn’t click a daily mail link)

If she insisted she go to a male ward the staff may have felt they no choice for fear of being disciplined for ‘misgendering’ her. If she was placed on the male ward by staff without her insisting on it, it’s again, due to gender fuckery and the staff fearing they’d be disciplined. The SC ruled that single sex spaces should be determined by biological sex, not gender identity, but the NHS is not complying, and this rape is the consequence. That’s what I was discussing.

13.2.3 There may be some circumstances where it is lawful to exclude a trans or non-binary service user from the other sexes single sex ward of their preferred gender even if the user wants to access the other sexes ward but only if as this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Establishing these two criteria requires staff to do the following: nothing at all as the establishment of any single sex ward is based on it being a proportionate means to achieving a legimate aim.

Staff should ensure that they take an objective and evidence-based approach to assessing any potential risks and vulnerabilities that could arise because of a trans or non-binary person being admitted to a ward in accordance with their gender identity. This should consider all relevant factors and not just be based on someone's gender identity alone.'

What is the personal liability?

On the front line staff?
On the staff who attempted to write the policy?
On the Board who signed off?

Anybody want to make an attempt at writing up the document which could be printed up for the front line staff and fed into DIE to check the Public Service and other KIP and legal and accounting staff to fill out when working out the contingent liability etc etc.

Staff should ensure that they take an objective and evidence-based approach to assessing any potential risk of
● Rape or
● Sexual Assault
and vulnerabilities that could arise because of
• a female being admitted on to what should be a male only ward
in accordance with their gender identity rather than their sex.

PATIENT NAME
SEX :
■ female
□ male
GENDER

WARD :
□ placed in female ward
■ placed in male ward
□ placed in mixed sex ward

RISK: Rape
Defined in "UK" law as....

Outcomes:
• patient is the victim of the rape
• patient is the rapist.
• patient is a witness to a rape
• other

Risk reduction : victim
Vulnerability reduction (How can a patient prevent their own rape):

Anybody want to guess what the policy author should recomend to be documented?

Risk reduction : rapist
Vulnerability reduction

Would asking staff "On a scale of 0 to 100 What is the likelhood that the patient is a rapist or not qualify" as objective?

Because that is what the various nursing Unions are signing off on when they allow the Board who signed off on the mixed sex policy to push the responsibilty of the decision making process onto the frontline staff

And an actual risk can be calculated as the insurance companies and publicly funded NHS insurance cover will have to come up with a number for any given year and set that cash aside in their budgets.

So that number will not be zero.

And the risk assessment continues...

RISK: Sexual Assault
Defined in "UK" law as....

Outcomes:
• patient is the victim of the Sexual Assault
• patient is the Sexual Offender
• patient is a witness to a Sexual Assault
• other

......

I'm so very sorry for what you went through, and that you weren't believed.

That's very kind of you, thanks.

Although I agree with others here that The Guardian has become a very poor newspaper, Annalisa Barbieri, the agony aunt, can be insightful. She has said that many of her correspondents have been abused as children and that many of them say that not being believed is worse than the abuse itself.

Iamnotalemming · Yesterday 08:10
And later put her in another facility with the man who raped her and she had to call 999! The state failing in its most basic functions.

PATIENT NAME
SEX :
■ female
□ male
GENDER

WARD :
□ placed in female ward
■ placed in male ward
■ placed in mixed sex ward

RISK: Rape
Defined in "UK" law as....
Outcomes:
• patient is the victim of the rape
• patient is the rapist.
• patient is a witness to a rape
• other
Risk reduction : victim
Vulnerability reduction (How can a patient prevent their own rape):

Option : Not place patient alongside other patient who is under investigation for raping her?

PATIENT NAME
SEX :
□ female
■ male
GENDER

WARD :
□ placed in female ward
■ placed in male ward
■ placed in mixed sex ward

RISK: Rape
Defined in "UK" law as....
Outcomes:
• patient is the victim of the rape
• patient is the rapist.
• patient is a witness to a rape
• other

Risk reduction : rapist
Vulnerability reduction

Currently under investigation for rape of other female patient on a hospital ward.......

This second event show a basic problem if staff were not able to access inhouse hospital data which proves there is a real risk to be managed.

13.2.1 The staring place for making a decision on which ward to admit a trans or non-binary service users should be the individual’s preference. Staff should remain mindful that an individual may not want to be admitted to a ward that matches their gender identity (e.g. a trans man may not want to be admitted to a male ward because of safety concerns)'

Under the policy staff would place any woman who claimed to be trans on the male ward unless SHE had expressed safety concerns

@AzureStaffy There's a chicken & egg element to that. Back in the days of "gatekeeping", severe & enduring psychiatric co-morbidities excluded patients from transition.
Now, clinicians tell themselves how very "Progressive" they are when they transition such people & can point to the co-morbidities (& the usual facile blether about "minority stress") as the excuse for why "gender-affirming" drugs & surgeries have not improved those patients' lives.

Read the URL. That's an archive of the hated Daily Mail.

The female patient won't commit a rape, that's impossible.

I get it: the form enumerates all possible outcomes and then states immediately below that the outcome that would apply to the patient.

Under the law in the UK she could as part of a joint enterprise with another patient who is male.

And seeing how the Trust are applying the rules to individuals who may be held as they are deemed to be danger to others the possibility of such a joint enterprise event is more likely (even if only by a tiny %) that in the "general" population

I know I shouldn't be shocked that this has happened, but I am still shocked that it has happened.

Gender identity ideology also harms people who identify as trans, sometimes in the most awful way.

Mostly female trans people. Who would have thought reifying sexist tropes would lead to worse outcomes for women?

Anyone who paid it a moment's thought knew.

I wonder how many people had that thought and then threw it away because they just don't care.

Using their eyesight like everyone else.

These mentally ill men realized she was a woman as soon as they laid eyes on her: five foot tall, a tiny woman in male clothing, a woman's face, no adam's apple, etc, etc, etc.

Short hair and trousers doesn't fool anyone and the people who go along with this delusion are facilitating this type of abuse.

I don't know if she had grown a beard or not but even that isn't enough to put men off if that is the intention. Buck Angel has made a career as a porn actress despite looking like JK Simmons from the waist up (but still very much a woman from the waist down which is what the punters are paying to see).

It overwhelmingly harms the females who are trans while giving most of the males additional privileges. It's completely male-focused.

Women who use male toilets or changing rooms are putting themselves in harm's way in the misguided belief that men can't tell they are female.
They can.
Instantly in most cases.

Most women are 5 inches shorter than most men in the West.
We have smaller, narrower frames, smaller heads, noses, ears, foreheads, shorter arms and legs, smaller hands and feet. skinny little wrists, no adam's apple, much thinner facial skin, etc, etc, etc.

Most trans men I have met are smaller than me and I'm the average height for a woman. It is utterly cruel to go along with a person's delusion.

From my very limited observations i noticed that the trans men I’d seen were all well below average height. As though being a small woman was something to escape

Calling women "females" is a bit of a giveaway there mate.

If you cared about this poor guy, you'd respect his identity. Full stop.

No one chooses to be trans, and every supportive parent of a trans person wishes they weren't trans - not because they don't respect & love them, but because they don't want them to be harassed, raped or killed.

Trans men know how vulnerable coming out makes them. It paints an immediate target. Yet they do it - because living openly as themselves is more important than that.

Trans people live with a degree of risk even I - a c!s woman of near 50, with a lifetime of coping with sexual harassment - can fathom. It certainly can't be understood by c!s men.

Trans people also live with a constant, exhausting hypervigilance. It makes trans kids collapse from sheer physical stress. No one chooses that. They are normal human beings who deserve understanding and respect. Misgendering is lame as hell, and says far more about the person doing it

We need safer MH spaces, a functioning justice system - and a far greater understanding of the impact dehumanisation of minorities has on society.