Womens toilet with cubicles in the workplace

[Foodylicious]

What should the position be here from the employer/organisation perspective, regarding a transwomen intermittently using these, as opposed to the single enclosed toilet (think typical disabled facility available in a supermarket/cafe) they use most of thw time, that is on the same floor/in close proximity.
Edited to add: This is UK, England.

Bully for you. You'll be fine in the gender neutral provisions then, won't you?

Applying that thinking to another accessibility need: Imagine: 'I'm personally not worried at all by going out wherever I want without a guide dog. I don't like dogs much. I'm sad for people who are blind, but I'm not afraid of moving around the world, and I don't see a need for guide dogs in the world if I'm not needing one.'

That’s awesome so when men with a trans identity claim using gender neutral toilets is “outing” you can be an ally and use those toilets with them, and the women who want single sex toilets can have those and we’re all good right?

You are clearly a wonderful, caring and sensitive woman. Assuming that you actually know a TiM, why don't you show your willingness to share toilets by taking him by the hand and walking together into the Gents and sitting in the next cubicle to him while you both complete your toilet?

Nah. Didn't think so.

You've clearly no idea of male sexuality at all.

And no empathy or understanding for your fellow women.

You just don't get it - and that's privilege

Doubling down on the I'm alright Jack response?

The thing you might not realise, India, is the reason these men want to use your loo is precisely because you are in it.

It is your presence and that of all the other women and girls, consenting or not, who provide the validation. It's not the room or the facilities, It's the presence of the women in them. Your presence.

Hence the reason why third spaces have been rejected out of hand. There's zero validation to be had from a space which any man can use. Only spaces specifically provided for women. It's not about peeing. It's about using women.

See India Willoughby gleefully, publicly and loudly asserting that he walked to the other end of an airport, entirely out of his way, to avoid the gender neutral toilet in favour of the one provided solely for the use of women and girls.

You may not be in the slightest bit bothered about being a public resource for these men. But think twice before you minimise, denigrate or criticise the women and girls who are.

Well, good for you. I don’t want men of any shape or form in toilets or changing rooms with my granddaughters. They get enough unwanted attention, in their early teens, from men and boys already.

Do you not understand that hysterical is an entirely inappropriate adjective to apply to women expressing concerns about safeguarding anywhere, let alone on a feminist discussion board?

That is an astute comment.

It makes me wonder whether the way some of the young live now - carried by car to organised activities and to school, always with a phone in hand - insulates them from the horrible introduction to predatory male sex perverts that most of us oldies go from the 60s to the 90s. From the flashers to the catcallers to the underwear thieves to the peepers and the touchers and the gropers. By the time we were 18 we knew there we dodgy men all over the place.

Making a blanket claim that they are not afraid of men with a specialised interest in entering female spaces is so naive.

Me. I’ve had to this week after a heavy period at work. I use non-applicator tampons too and while I can wipe down as best as possible before going to the shared sinks, there’s some residue blood around the fingertip and nail and make sure that’s away before leaving. So, yes, me. I’m that person.

I also don’t want or expect to have to be changing sanitary products within earshot or any man. None of their business that I’m on my period. And being perimenopausal, I have no clue when it’s coming so there may be times I’m changing more than just a tampons but dealing with a clothing emergency. So, yeah, your ‘who the fuck ‘ person is me.

Jolly good. Do you remember to check for hidden cameras? Especially as you like your privacy.

It was only.a week or two ago, that I was told how weak I was for not wanting a male colleague from hearing the opening of san pro packets as an indication that I was menstruating by a poster on MN.

Apparently, it isn’t feminist to want that privacy. Instead we should be letting the world know.

Unfortunately they get a double dose, in real life when they are walking to school, running in the park, at the gym, on the train, playing sport, in the playground and classroom or just shopping PLUS they get harassment online

The thing all the people harassing have in common is that they are biological men, however they present and one thing all the victims have in common is that they are biological women however they present, whatever they wear and whatever they are doing minding their own business.

And also Robin Moira Wright calling mixed sex toilet rooms ‘ghettos’ and insisting on asking where the women’s is again in parliament buildings, despite Parliament having labelled ‘gender-neutral’ toilets.

There is no need to make women uncomfortable.

See also Victoria McCloud who seems to think leaving the country is the only way to not get killed if not being able to use women’s loos. Unfortunately Victoria not thinking it through far enough to realise women’s loos are obsolete if they are open to men. Currently the single sex designs would all have to change presumably becoming the ghettos RMW mentions.

men with a specialised interest in entering female spaces

💯

Let the world know. Sure, why not? We have nothing to be ashamed of.

BUT - mega, enormous caveat - only if you are comfortable to let them know. Only on your own terms. Your body, your choice. Nobody has the right to know. And for certain nobody has the right to hear the sound of your tampon wrapper so that he can get his rocks off.

That’s great. Your choice, and so kind of you to make the choices on your grand daughters behalf too.

But not my choice so please don’t make choices for me, or for the other women who because of trauma, shyness, religion, social anxiety, health issues or personal preference , prefer not to share intimate spaces with men who for reasons of their own choose to ignore womens feelings and intrude on single sex spaces.

Might be worth taking a few moments to wonder why TIM do feel that their needs and wants trump the needs and wants of women, because let’s face it, most men wouldn’t.

Bloody hell....

Ok, the women who are wishing to open sanpro at men and broadcast that they are bleeding at the moment and be Out and Proud and other stuff too can go and bore the living crap out of everyone in the gender neutral facilities can't they?

And leave the women who want a single sex space and privacy in peace.

Everybody happy.

It always always boils down to leaving women alone. Just leave them the fuck alone. All this bullshit and bullying is purely about trying to force non consenting women to submit to men. Wtf is the matter with these people?

I used to be of the same opinion as you until Katie Dolatowski tried to rape a 10 yr old girl in the women's toilets of a supermarket 10 miles away from me. As noted in the attached article, Lennon/Katie Dolatowski had previously committed the crime of voyeurism against a 12 yr old girl, again in a supermarket toilet.

You'll note that the lockable cubicle did not deter the predator: "When she came out of her cubicle, Dolatowski shoved her back in and told her there was a man outside who would kill her mother."

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/819644/mum-of-supermarket-toilet-sex-assault-victim-warns-freed-attacker-could-strike-again/

Ah. I hadn't picked up on the word "hysteria" when I first read that post. I do find the use of that word rather telling.

As was exactly the problem with Lennon Dolatowski's victims.

The third picture down in this article gives a more accurate picture of the horror visited upon Dolatowski's victims. I am in awe of the 10 yr old girl who fought off this 6ft plus brute by punching "her" in the balls.

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/4324534/sex-offender-dolatowski-mens-prison/

I had similar problems when I was 56, in spite of being on HRT. I remember the precise time that the worst incident happened because my school had moved into a new build where the toilets were single sex but the sink area was open to the corridor 'to prevent vandalism and bullying'. This was central Scotland.

Yes, staff had to share with pupils. Yes, staff complained.

Two slightly younger women at work had similar problems and finished up getting signed off until each had an operation. (We discussed the matter and possible solutions.) Thankfully, my problem sorted itself out.

In regards to younger people not understanding:

There is a demographic going through school that will absolutely understand because they have had to deal with mixed sex toilets and sinks. I think it’s telling that children themselves divide the toilets into female sides and male sides, such is the reluctance for both sexes to use mixed sex toilets and sinks. What happens in schools absolutely is indicative of what happens in society.

Other young people won’t have had this experience. They may not have had much experience of using council run public toilets as around 40% have closed. They will have used venue toilets in restaurants etc or abstained from going.

I find it extremely difficult to get any sort of stats particularly on non-domestic toilets in businesses because no one wants to advertise the fact someone came to harm in their toilets. It has to get through so many layers of people not saying anything for various reasons before a small % of incidents get in the papers.

Unfortunately I get a lot of toilet related clips on social media. Young people aren’t stupid - IF they see these clips they will see the problems.

What I get frustrated about is the knee-jerk solution to enclose the toilet cubicle itself then surely everything fine. That’s actually the worst situation for health and safety.

Yes. Where on earth else would one be advocating for male access to a locked room, containing partially dressed women and children??

That's horrific, Genderless. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

My experience is of a place of safety, which it should have been for you. As a child of about 11, I ran away from a man (a stranger) who had sexually assaulted me, and hid in the women's toilets. The women there kept me safe, while some of them chased him away from hanging around outside.

At my junior school, in a fairly rough area, I had discovered that if a boy was bullying you and you could run to the girls' toilets, you'd be safe because he couldn't go in.

Though the assault made me hypervigilant when in a confined space or with a man between me and the exit, I continued to feel safe and comfortable in women's toilets, changing rooms etc until the recent trend for men to invade women's spaces. Now they are no longer reliably safe.

Thanks so much, Indianajet and your circles. Thanks for nothing.

can you quit it with the "hysteria" comment. Thanks.

There are many and varied reasons why women - for eg Muslim women - don't want a man in a women's space. Applies ESPECIALLY when there are other places those men can go