Womens toilet with cubicles in the workplace

[Foodylicious]

What should the position be here from the employer/organisation perspective, regarding a transwomen intermittently using these, as opposed to the single enclosed toilet (think typical disabled facility available in a supermarket/cafe) they use most of thw time, that is on the same floor/in close proximity.
Edited to add: This is UK, England.

That’s nice dear.

All this proves is that women’s complaints aren’t being recorded, but we already knew that. There have been several employment tribunals now where there were clear trails of emails and discussions where women had raised complaints and the employer had taken no action or had taken action against the complainant.

If he is masturbating, filming on his phone under the cubicle door, recording women urinating for sexual kicks, waiting for a child to come in alone? (All reported, verified events) You are ok with that?

Women often don't complain, because of the consequences of doing so. When they do complain, it's rarely recorded.

These FoI requests cover only public bodies; the vast majority of employers or venues aren't included in the above research. (And only the public bodies who were asked, which is not all of them - I can point to 2 hospitals that between them have a minimum of 24 complaints.)

And it also only covers complaints, not crimes - so horrific events like 'Katie' Dolotwski's attacks on children are missed out. And 3 years isn't very long.

And who the hell eats biscuits with wine? (Cantuccini excluded, obviously.)

There were more than four girls upset at the inclusion of a male student in their loos at my child's school alone. They were told they would be disciplined if they complained. So "only four complaints" means nothing.

The early 90s were an awesome time. The Soviet Union had crumbled, grunge was at its peak, dance music was fab, people weren't staring down a phone most of their awake time yet and nobody was in any doubt whatsoever about biological sex. Don't diss 1992.

On reflection, one of the hospitals is Scotland so wouldn't have been picked up by the above even if done properly. So make that 1 hospital and 23 complaints.

You should rename to "CherryPickingMyNumbersGuy"

Why are you using such a gendered description of people who simply want the law withheld?

im a rape and SA survivor. Due to trauma caused by that I can’t have a man on the other side of a locked door.

why don’t you think men should have to obey the law?

@IndianajetI accept and respect that you are comfortable using cubicle style toilets that men who regard themselves as women can use. I am really not. Rationally I know that there is a small risk of covert cameras, recording etc, a tiny risk of assault. But the bigger issues is visceral, I feel very very uneasy about doing my business with only cubicle protection from males. I think this is evolved hardwiring - throughout human history women have had to keep themselves and children safe. I don’t even use toilets if there is a male cleaner. I don’t want to punish or humiliate trans women, many of whom who may have very similar feelings by insisting they use male toilets, but there have to be third space arrangement s or properly designed unisex toilets (which I personally dislike but I accept that this is a compromise solution). I do not think I should be shamed into accepting that my feelings are less important than transwomen feeling ”validated” by using women’s toilets. And this is without even considering the (albeit tiny number) of bad faith actors who use male rights to women’s spaces to predate.

And before anyone says it. It’s a fourth space. Not a third space. The third space is taken by disabled people.

and before anyone says this as well. A trans person should not use the disabled loos unless they are disabled. If they are disabled, then of course they should.

I assume you must randomly alternate (depending what is most convenient) between using toilet blocks marked as men and women then? They both have lockable cubicles, so no reason to restrict yourself.

Have you actually ever been in a public toilet with a strange man?
My one experience was when I was in a student union building for an evening theatre performance where the ‘gender neutral’ (women’s with a new sign in the door 🙄) toilets were the only ones near to the theatre so I had no real choice other than to use them, or go wandering off in the hope of finding some single sex facilities. I walked in alone, and a perfectly normal looking, middle aged man came in a few seconds after. I immediately felt uncomfortable and on edge and could see he did too, but then some more men and women came in and I felt a bit more relaxed. You could tell most people, men and women, were uncomfortable but had to get on with it.
Nothing untoward was likely to happen as it was busy but there is no way I would use an isolated facility.
You might be completely on board in theory but I bet you would have a completely different attitude in practice.

So what number of women is the number you would accept before you agree men should not be in female spaces? 10? 100? 1000? One is too many don’t you agree?

But @PurpleBubble mens toilets also have lockable cubicles so males with a trans identity would be perfectly safe in there. No need to use female facilities. Awesome. .

I was sexually assaulted by a man on the otherwise empty top deck of a bus when I was 14.

I never told anyone until many years later.

That was only the worst of the usual collection of groping, seeing men masturbate under their clothes in public when I couldn’t escape and general threatening behaviour I have experienced. All by men. Never reported. Who to? Who would do anything?

No, I lie. In my 40s, at work, a 6’4” colleague came to my office door one quiet evening and asked if I’d like a fuck. Straight out. He had me trapped. I was scared and angry but there were enough people within earshot that I could tell him to piss off and never do that again. He said it was a joke. I told our boss who called him in for a talking to.

@NumbersGuy do you think I can or should ever not be wary of what men might do when I am vulnerable?

It must be lovely to move in circles where men are no threat to women.

'hysteria' huh? How very 19th century of you.

I would rather have completely sealed cubicles, because a very well informed poster has explained repeatedly (with data) how dangerous they are for anyone who suffers collapse for any reason (heart, epilepsy, diabetes etc).

I would rather not share wash basin facilities with a man if I'm coping with blood or other body fluids.

I have a lifetime of sexual harassment and minor assault by men. No of course I never reported it, what would be the point of that?

But just because I have a female body, my opinions and my expression of them are not governed by a wandering and uncontrollable womb.

This is so weird. Why would you even think of using such a sociopathic argument? "4 real people complained, but we can all agree to dismiss them entirely, right?" Like, one person complaining would already be too much. A person is a person is a person. They can't be dismissed as a non-person. So weird.

@Indianajet
So - eh - interesting, that you "just do not get the hysteria over toilets".
Your consent is not transferable.

ffs

Rather NOT have completely sealed cubicles (because if I or a colleague have health issues we could end up dead).

Ooo a Cool GranMa

What other law should your granddaughters employer deem hysteria?

The whole type of bodies of humans who grow the babies stuff costs firms a fortune and why should women get special treatment just because there is laws in place?

As @InfoSecInTheCity s post pointed out the UK employer has legal obligations which are not a pick-n-mix.

Funnily enough, they didn't ask schools. Or prisons. Hospitals were asked only about complaints by patients, not staff. Only 50 local authorities - out of 317 - were asked (41 responded).

Almost as if they were trying to minimise the issue.