How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

People don’t have to be shown porn to not understand male people’s paraphilias though. All this discussion about ‘you don’t have search for such vileness’ is beside the point.

The content people see referencing the paraphilias don’t have to be explicit at all for us to know what content is referencing. The point about us searching for it, I believe, was meant to shame people. And the point numerous posters have made back is that we don’t have to search for it, we can read about it or see videos referencing it just as easily as we see explicit material. Crime reports for one. Videos from influencers for another.

This was the post which was taken out of context, and apologised for.

“I keep coming across really quite grim videos featuring people revelling in the excitement of being sexy lady-boys. I'm sure that's not a PC term, but these "trans women" seem to have no gender dysphoria whatsoever; rather they appear to be flaunting their male sexuality and drawing attention to their genitals. I suppose this is AGP in action.”

Not only is it through that direct content that we get to know about male paraphilias. It is also on the news services, even mainstream services.

All this talk about accessing explicit content is pretty meaningless to the point that the PassportPanicFuuuck was* *making.

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

I don't think Mumsnet's machine learning driven automoderator liked my link to Gary Dean Marie's entry on the Trans Crime UK website.

It was Marie I was thinking of. I'm looking at the references to Andrew Miller and thinking "you mean there's another one?"

MN automatically hides all the Transcrime Uk dot com links. You have to just give people the name to search and then write the URL to the main site broken up so people know where to go. They don’t release the link generally but you can try to ask them.

Who benefits from women not being allowed to link to a comprehensive collection of predominantly-male criminals who are misreported as women in the news and then, in many cases, try to identify their way into women's prisons?

Poor show, Mumsnet HQ.

Amazing how you came to that conclusion. Do provide the quotes to evidence this.

“People don’t have to be shown porn to not understand male people’s paraphilias though”

sorry. That should be

People don’t have to be shown porn to understand male people’s paraphilias though

Be careful what you wish for. The GRA actually narrowed the scope of what cross-dressed men could access. Prior to its passing, judges made the decisions on what any given "transsexual" could do, & what a festival of unconsidered sexism & misogyny, & indulgence towards the "born in the wrong body" crew that turned out to be. IMO, "legal sex" is no more than magical thinking but its a kind of magical thinking to which many legal minds are prey. Having their fancies constrained by statute is helpful - that's why Stonewall et al have spent the last decade lying about the provisions of the GRA.

"Any"?
I suggest that your familiarity with the relevant academic literature may be rather out of date. By about 40 years.

Some of these men have said they have ASD or ADHD, some have been described by others as having ASD traits, several of them donate to research into neurodivergent conditions.

The rise of digital technologies has probably given great power and influence to a group of men (and a handful of women) with neurodivergent traits, who excel in these fields. Is some of what we are experiencing due to a shift in focus towards ideas and ideologies that they value?

I wonder if this, combined with the usual culprits of big (pharmaceutical) business and powerful men with fetishes, has created the perfect storm for transgenderism/transhumanism.

I m autistic and I think you might be on to something. The only reason why I haven't tried to transition is because I know that sex is immutable and I'd be a mutilated woman, not a man. My body feels like a skinsuit I'm stuck inside.

I can see why someone who feels like an alien from another planet trapped in a human body would welcome being able to modify that body and wouldn't necessarily think hard enough about what could go wrong. Entrepeneurs within and outwith tech are leap-of-faith types anyway, that's why they are entrepeneurs.

IMO, what will happen is that younger people will grow up with much more tolerant attitudes. And like the anti-homosexual element of the older generation, TERFs will die out.

Gender fluidity will just become pedestrian and everyday and the debate will die a natural death.

Difficult to pick out a part of this post that isn't homophobic and misogynist, so I quoted the whole thing.

The idea that people should define their identity in terms of masculinity and femininity, and that 'gender incongruence' is a problem to be treated with medication and surgery is intrinsically misogynist and homophobic. There is no need to define personality in terms of 'gender fluidity'. Just be a human being with any of the range of traits that are normal for humans.

20-30 years ago this was just bog standard feminism and gay rights. It is not 'more tolerant' to force people into gender boxes and younger generations are not necessarily more 'evolved' than previous generations. I really don't know what went wrong.

Yet the exact opposite is happening. Poll after poll shows Trans Ideology is dying out further and further each year, just as being goth or 'Pro Ana' did. It's even dying out in the younger generation at schools who know roll their eyes at it. It's not 'tolerant' to allow fully intact males in female change rooms, that is just hateful misogynistic stupidity.

You remind me of the anti-Suffragettes who swore that suffragettes and the 'agenda to vote' will die out. Feminism and the need for womens rights will never die out. Don't fool yourself. The public is becoming more tolerant of womens needs and rights, even if you are not. You are being left behind.

And dragging gay into this? Wake up, this is not Gay 2.0. Gay men did not seek to enter women and girls change rooms or advocate for lesbians to have their breasts chopped off. Gay rights took nothing from women. From a gay man himself:

Thank you for describing your experience. Your thoughts make sense to me.

I think the GC debate shouldn't exclusively focus on the men with fetishes. I feel that there is another group of people in the mix who need to be approached in a different way and who may have difficulty seeing GC women's perspectives on this, not because they are misogynists but because they generally have to work harder to understand other people's perspectives on anything.

The reason that pp used the term “gender fluidity” is they don’t understand what this issue is about, but it sounds progressive and good to them.

You obviously haven't heard that there is a class lawsuit against Tavistock as we speak. You obviously haven't paid attention. And where is your evidence that the 'LGBT' community stands with their 'trans' members? All evidence to the contrary, yours is simply wishful thinking and comical.

People in real life just don't care that much

That's what the men said about the Suffragettes fighting for women to have the vote. 'No one cares'. Guess what? You were wrong then. And you are wrong now. Poll after poll after poll shows the overwhelming majority of women support the retention of female only safe single sex spaces. A (YouGov, so a proper one) poll even showed two thirds supported the SC judgement. You are in an ever decreasing fringe spiral of irrelevance. You are being left behind. As for hobby? From reading history, I know that that is what men told the Suffragettes. "get a hobby". Well our hobby is defending WOMENS RIGHTS. Get out of the way if yours is defending (as it obviously is) Mens Rights.

You support a fundamentally homophobic at it's nucleus and misogynistic Ideology. You don't support women's sex-based rights. At least own your position.

I think an earlier poster had it right when they said Trans Ideology is an individualistic, capitalistic ideology. It is anti everything the left wing is supposed to be. Anti-womens rights. Anti the collective (womens rights as a whole). It focusses on the individual male, rather than the collective of women. I wonder if some of the MRAs/TRAs on here ever stopped to truly think that deeply about the capitalistic, individualistic, anti-collective ideology they support? Too shallow to think, I suspect.

Maybe when more women stand up. We represent over half the human population on the planet. En masse, we're a force to be reckoned with. At the moment there are too many handmaidens and women who can't (or won't) get involved. Especially from the 'chattering classes'.
I don't expect much in the way of support from men. Most don't give a toss about issues that don't affect them.

I expect so.

Just that sentence about gender fluidity is a good indicator. But that combined with the erroneous forced teaming of people who are same sex attracted makes it overwhelmingly sound like someone who is just repeating stuff and probably doesn’t really have any depth of understanding of the issues at hand.

Yes, exactly.

For the amount of pearl clutching and hypocrisy from many of the people on TERF Island, might I suggest relocating to a country where homosexuality is not only outlawed but punishable by death. This way none of the chatterling classes and the men who don't give a toss would have no say in trans rights. Countries to consider would be: Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar,, Saudi Arabia, UAE, or Yemen. Just a thought to save all of this free rent that people keep giving this issue in their heads, when it likely doesn't directly affect them anyhow.

You first, mate 🤷‍♀️

But as men get free “gender affirming care” in Iran…maybe a lot of males with a trans identity could move there instead. In fact it’s not just free, it’s encouraged by the government.

Huh? Sorry did I miss when news articles or journals about violence against women started using the terms j or s*" when describing sexual assault?

I really don't know how I can explain this any clearer or if you're being pedantic. I've said very clearly people manage all the time to discuss sexual assault without disgusting porn terminology so yes obviously the issue is PP.talkinf about children's underwear sounding like a pervert with the words jrk and s*nk which is completely unnecessary and inappropriate,.it also had no context or added to the discussion and was simply an unwarranted graphic pedo description no reasonable person wants to see on a parenting forum. I objected to it and reported it as I suggest anyone does with inappropriate content online. Can you stop taking issue with me being uncomfortable now?.