What taf is wrong with men?!

[guinnessguzzler]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78vgm0e3zzo

Wtaf?! After the Pelicot case in France, and I'm sure someone posted about a similar situation in Germany the other day, and now this. Why are they so awful?

And yes I know it's not all men but ffs.

Ah thanks, that makes sense. I was wondering because I'm bisexual myself & in my early teens I remember feeling uncomfortable with feeling attracted to pictures of women in underwear etc and wondering if this made me creepy. I've heard similar from other lesbian & bi people irl.

So I guess I was wondering if the attraction you felt to women was much stronger, or if it felt that way because you hadn't viewed women sexually before, so suddenly doing so was disorienting

It sounds definitely like hormones were the cause. As you say, men's hormones probably are part of the roots of this, but women, including trans men on hormones like you, don't normally try to hurt others sexually. I think a key is that women are, perhaps intrinsically, more aware of physical vulnerability and more likely to empathise/identify with the victim. This needs to be emphasised to men early on, because clearly compassion & empathy isn't well-rooted in a large number of men.. Porn etc exacerbates this as constant viewing encourages seeing women as objects to be used.

The demographics might have changed since, but I remember taking an course in epidemiology, and it stated in the 1990s globally, the social group most likely to be given STDs like HIV were said to be the monogamous wives of promiscuous businessmen (that word again) who used prostitutes.

The theory at the time was that at least women in prostitution knew to use condoms, but the wives had no inkling or more likely ability to insist on the same, and it would mean the husband admitting to himself what he was doing rather than compartmentalizing that side of himself

@Seethlaw · Today 07:27
I am very, very sorry for what happened to you within your own family.💐 How dreadful for you.
As you say that urge to sexually abuse anyone unprotected if the chance arises, or

If a peer group is encouraging it, is not that uncommon at all, and maybe even almost a default. But it is absolutely awful all the same.

It is interesting what you say about the effects of testosterone, reporting as it were, from the other side. It is brave of you to do that.

My "Rule Ten Alert" was highlighting how, even when posting a news story about a man who has drugged and raped his own wife, committed image-based sexual abuse of her by sending copies[1] of the rape footage to others, and was found to have hundreds of indecent images of children, the OP still felt the need to reassure men that it's OK, we don't think it's all of them. This is not me saying that the OP is a bad person or "unfeminist", which I should have made clear from the outset. Reading back, I came across as scolding the OP. I am sorry for that.

Rather, I am making an observation that the OP did this and stating why I think women should make a conscious effort to stop. Women are so conditioned to appease men and take care of them and their feelings that we automatically, reflexively, try to do this, even when we are calling out the most appalling male behaviour. We are not responsible for how men feel[2] when they find out that some of their number hurt us. If they feel bad about that, they should sit with that bad feeling and let it motivate them into positive action, not expect a female support biped to make them feel better. They certainly shouldn't expect us to do their damage control PR for them, and we should refuse to do it, and when we catch ourselves doing it automatically, we should stop. And we should support each other in stopping, which is what I was trying to do but I was really clumsy about it.

[1]: It's not "sharing". "Sharing" is when your children divide a cream cake between themselves, or use a pool of common colouring pencils. "Sharing" sanitises the act of sending copies of abuse footage, makes it look like a virtue when it isn't.

[2]: Rule One of Misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do. Self-fellating Ouroboros Of Hate's Corollary to Rule One of Misogyny: Women are responsible for how men feel.

Rule One of Misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.

This clip of Mad Men popped up on my feed. Peggy is new in the job and knows that Don is off having an affair when his wife and kids turn up for a family picture.

https://youtube.com/shorts/q270HmrSdBU?si=idhKrNyqKVtxtXbK

The comments section is full of real life anecdotes.

"Watching the Sopranos and Mad Men made me realise that a lot of men expect women to solve their problems when the men are the actual issue" .
https://youtube.com/shorts/q270HmrSdBU?lc=UgzrSJ07TKLVsDvlXHZ4AaABAg&si=q-e3iqdNkfC4JGQW

Parallel thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5463974-husband-and-five-other-men-charged-with-sex-offences-against-ex-wife-england

Don't want anyone to miss the discussions about this through not realising that there's more than one thead.

That's very interesting. It's obviously on someone's radar if you went to a conference about it. I was truly horrified by the Gisele Pelicot case and found the situation unimaginable. Now, sadly, it's completely imaginable. From now on it's going to be 'oh, another one'. I think online chatrooms are making it very easy for men to be groomed into taking part.

@StopBothering's comment "Earlier this year a Facebook group called My Wife, 30,000 members, also shut down. Men sharing intimate photo's of their wives and girlfriends without their consent."

Almost every time I go on FB, I am amazed by what men will happily say in public groups, especially if it involves an attractive woman and/or is scantily clad (by which I mean anything less than a full niqab).

There seems to be absolutely no filter or way to stop themselves from commenting gross stuff as easily as if they were mentioning the weather.

So I can only begin to imagine the absolute horror show a closed group would contain. And all these men are our fathers, brothers, uncles, nephews.... and yes, even your nice Nigel that you say wouldn't do such a thing.

I saw a wonderful idea to counter this. Anytime a man does a good thing of any kind, we cheerfully remind him that NAMALT!

Thanks @selffellatingouroborosofhate To be clear, I wasn't trying to appease men at all, I was actually trying to get ahead of the inevitable NAMALT comments by simply acknowledging that fact (and it is a fact, clearly in a world with however many billion men, it must be the case that there is one, somewhere, who isn't, even if it's because he is in a coma) but it clearly somewhat backfired! I don't think we should have to spend our time placating men or worrying about their feelings but I'm conscious that, especially on the internet, if you make generalised statements someone will always come along to correct you. But you're right, it would be better if we could just get on and have these discussions without bothering about this stuff.

Joanne Young is so brave, wish I could send her a big bouquet of flowers, it must have all been so hard for her 💐💐

Police seek SEVENTH man over alleged drugging and raping of wife as six people including her husband appear in court charged with more than 50 offences | Daily Mail Online

I had read the written description of #7 earlier, but now I see there is a photo, he is a dead man walking. He best start wearing his comfy clothes all the time, cos he's gonna be locked up in them very soon I expect,

Urgh

It may not be all men but its enough men for the question to be entirely reasonable!

Something is very wrong with males.

A heads-up that the pictures of suspect #7 are cropped from the rape videos and photographs. The victim is cropped out, as is everything below the waist, but it's clear from his posture and facial expression what he is doing, and we can infer from context to whom. 🤮

Coming quickly back to this, as I keep reading similar assertions. Testosterone increases urgency. It's a quality of libido, not the whole thing but a very important one nonetheless. I have some experience of this - nowhere near Seethlaw's - related to my PCOS and experimental treatment with spironolactone. My T was high for a woman and right at the bottom of the male range. Suppression made a strong qualitative difference to both my sex drive and my demeanour.

If you've spent plenty of time around men in a range of contexts, testosterone-associated urgency shouldn't be a surprise. In medical literature, the hormone promotes impulsiveness and competitiveness as well as 'virility'. It doesn't, in itself, promote violence or rape but those are consequences of disinhibited impulsiveness, competitiveness and sexual imperative.

Also, violence promotes testosterone production. Hard workouts do, too, probably because they engage the same physical processes as fighting.

I realise you said SA is nearly always about power and control, and rarely just sexual gratification. I think it's worth getting our heads around the understanding that testosterone drives a feedback loop involving both sex and aggression. Forced copulation can't be about violence alone, since a male body provides many more effective weapons than a penis.

As a sort of aside, the words for 'penis' in ancient languages were related or identical to 'weapon' (the word penis derives from this). I think this tells us something useful about how men feel when experiencing sexual urges.

'Crowd fever' demonstrably reduces inhibitions - it's why we enjoy big concerts, carnivals, sports events, etc - and its little brother, 'team spirit' can be very potent as well. I do understand how phenomena like tag rape and military sexual violence occur. You need to throw in some misogyny and dehumanisation as well, at least while getting the atrocity started.

There's also the very simple motive that orgasming feels good and men reliably orgasm from inserting their penis into someone else's body.

If you dislike someone (as an individual or as part of a group you dislike) enough that it overrides your empathy for them, are strong enough to overcome their physical resistance, and can hurt and humiliate them with the same act that gives you orgasmic pleasure, why wouldn't you? It's the perfect revenge combination. We've all, at some point, fantasised about delivering the perfect verbal putdown to someone who we perceive to have wronged us and thought of how satisfying that would feel. Rape, with it's combination of humilation of the victim and orgasmic satisfaction for the perp, turns that up to eleven and then some.

women, including trans men on hormones like you, don't normally try to hurt others sexually

Indeed. That part, I really have no insight about, no clue. I mean, I have rare flashes of anger/aggressivity when I feel threatened, when before I would feel terrified, but that's as far as taking testosterone seems to have affected my emotions. I certainly don't have urges to hurt anyone, no fantasies or even intrusive thoughts or anything. And I don't think my empathy and compassion levels have changed either.

Agreed also with everything else you say.

Great post. I have PCOS too (fairly mild) & would say it probably impacts my sex drive, competitiveness & impulsiveness though not excessively, & I don't have urges to be violent or attack people... But the effects of T are key to this.

On the penis/weapon point, Gloria Steinem noted in her classic essay Erotica Vs Pornography that 'screwed', 'fucked' etc are aggressive & sexual words, and these generally apply to men acting aggressively to women . There's a lot of comparisons in language : 'conquest' 🤮 would be another one.

So basically, from what I'm seeing of the testosterone-based discussion here: yes, all men ARE like that, as they are hormonally driven towards aggressive, domineering behaviour...which is often directed towards sexual outlets. These hormone-driven tendencies are then normalised and encouraged in society, embedding them more deeply, and exacerbating the behaviours.

I feel like this makes sense, honestly, given the global, enduring nature of men's objectification and oppression of women – I've always thought that men's misogynistic behaviour most likely arose from a biological cause.

I'm not sure how one solves an entire sex's inbuilt tendency towards (sexual) violence, though. We banned XL Bullies, but we can't exactly ban men. It's rather depressing.

@Carla786
"I think a key is that women are, perhaps intrinsically, more aware of physical vulnerability and more likely to empathise/identify with the victim."

I think it's mostly that girls aren't socialised the way boys are – they aren't taught to take up space, be aggressive and dominant, or have the same sense of entitlement. Physical domination isn't ingrained in them as a positive, or necessity.

I think that quite often it doesn't even go that far in a rapist's mind, especially when it comes to rape within relationships, of known friends, or women on a night out who may be vulnerable due to alcohol or drugs.

He doesn't even consider his victim, or how they might feel, at all. He thinks only of himself, and what he wants. And if he wants sexual release, he gets it – the victim is only relevant inasmuch as he is using them to orgasm, and often in those situations will tell himself 'she was up for it anyway'.

That's what I think, too. A lot of rapists are hateful & misogynistic, but a lot probs don't even go that far, which in a way is scarier. The woman isn't a person to them, just an object to use for their evil purposes.

Exactly! It's not about humiliation, hatred, or punishment of the victim (usually a woman) because they don't even think about how it'll affect her. They're just so entitled, so self-aborbed, and so without empathy, that all they think about is themselves and their orgasm.

And in a way, that is scarier than thinking rape is a deliberate wielding of power – it's why I think a lot of people insist that all rape is about power and not sex, because somehow deliberate evil and harm is less confronting than the fact that many rapists just don't care, at all, about whether the victim is consenting or not.