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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/12/2025 19:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025

OP posts:
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62
Peregrina · 14/12/2025 11:06

You'll note she didn't do any research on how many women feel uncomfortable with a man in the changing room. No one does because they wouldn't like the answer.

Yes

Furthermore I bet that 100% of women have had to dash to the loo at some time because their period has started unexpectedly or become heavier than expected.

MarieDeGournay · 14/12/2025 11:06

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 14/12/2025 09:33

It's more that I thought that an "ambulant" toilet with its crutches symbol was distinct from an "accessible" toilet with its wheelchair symbol, and that the accessible fulfilled the needs of both.

Contrary to the impression I might give, it wasn't me who wrote Doc T of the English building regs, I'm not related to the person who did, and I don't get royalties every time I quote itSmile
I just like its detail and its clarity. If it was adopted as the standard, things would be a lot easier.

Here it is on 'Ambulant' toilets. Note that while they are of benefit to disabled people who are not wheelchair users, they are also good for people with luggage, mothers with little ones, people who temporarily need a bit of extra support, etc etc. And that they can be standalone mixed sex cubicles OR ambulant cubicles within single sex spaces - in fact I'm you've probably all already seen the wider ambulant cubicles in women's toilets.

Ambulant
Able to walk unassisted.
Ambulant self-contained toilet
A room or building that contains a water-closet (WC) and may also contain a washbasin, for use by ambulant people. A room for one person only used by either an ambulant disabled person or any person who can walk but with reduced mobility, or by other people who would benefit from a larger toilet cubicle with grab rails, such as people with luggage, people with a sports injury or pregnant women.
Ambulant single-sex toilet cubicle
A ventilated compartment not self-contained, used only by people of the sex identified at the entrance to the toilet room, with no washbasin, for use by ambulant people. A compartment for one person only used by either an ambulant disabled person or any person who can walk but with reduced mobility, or by other people who would benefit from a larger toilet cubicle with grab rails, such as people with luggage, people with a sports injury or pregnant women.
Appendix A
Approved Document T - Toilet accomodation

SqueakyDinosaur · 14/12/2025 11:14

Even though Stonewall's revenues have dropped in the last few years, their last accounts show almost £7m. Just think how many grants they could have made to SMEs and charities to help them to provide third spaces from that.

Keeptoiletssafe · 14/12/2025 11:27

TheHereticalOne · 14/12/2025 06:54

Thank you, that's very interesting to ponder. Drink of choice and beermat shawl will be duly delivered to the staunch alley at your convenience!

I have some theories on this - I would love a toilet symposium! There’s a few people I know off mumsnet I would like people to meet. @prh47bridge has touched on a massive problem that the government has. It is obvious they are trying to tally everyone’s existing designs into the Supreme Court judgement. It can’t be done because for years businesses have not been following building standards and HSE advice.

Now the focus is on toilets, people have realise what a mess this is. The Government tried to do something about it with Document T (only applies to England and not to schools etc) and the intention is there is very clear - single sex first then universal. They made clear it was as the result to stop the rise of gender neutral designs which aren’t regulated at all.

People have been complaining that universal toilets are discriminatory towards woman for 20 years. That too is documented.

HSE talks about people having the need for separate-sex toilet washrooms.

HSE have told me directly single sex toilets are the only one to have door gaps (that’s design C single sex and design D single sex ambulant). This is clearly an advantage to health and safety to women and children. Bluntly, it is very unlikely rapes take place in single sex toilets with door gaps compared to private toilets. The design where most people collapse and do not get found in time are private designs.

If you look deeply enough into legislation and building regs and standards, they were all built on single sex provision.

The disabled toilet expansion came after WW2 in direct response to having provision for amputees. Businesses weren’t happy about the extra costs. The mixed sex element is because it only requires one. The privacy, as people have found out, is a problem because they are used for sex, drugs, parties (!), sleeping, all sorts.

Worldwide, the best way to get girls to go to school is to build girls toilets. That is well known. I use to sponsor a girl via Plan and that’s what they did. It works.

So why the DfE have signed off on quarter of secondary schools just having mixed sex toilets? It’s madness. However, in a cruel experiment, it has shown what you think may happen, happens. The government need to look what has happened to schools. There’s private companies selling subscriptions to schools for all sorts of monitoring devices and alarms in each private toilet now because of the behaviour and risks inside them.

It’s a massive job getting provision to be equal for women. We’ve never had equal provision because of our biological needs compared to men. Now it’s in danger again.

OhBuggerandArse · 14/12/2025 11:33

BezMills · 14/12/2025 10:12

The Judgement

A Judgie sat in the courtroom's big cherr
An he thocht there wis niver a Judgie so ferr
He went ben the chambers, he waggled his pen,
An’ cockit his heid as he stood up for men,
The bigsy wee craitur was feeling that prood
As he laid doon the law an he laid it ticht good

"Gi'en ye'd a like tae see a richt Judgement", quo he
"Ye'll niver a sweer see a better nor he
Wi ref'rences citet, nae doobt shall remain
Thon nursie's wheesht haudit, her lawyer the same
Nae need fur much checkin, ah'm trustin ma feels
An ah ken ah'm a rale bonnie speller as weel
Ah'm nae gaun tae blaw but the truth a maun tell
I believe it's the verra MacJudgement itsel’.” …

A KC was hungry an’ needin’ tae sup,
Sae he nabbit th’ Judgement and gollup’t it up;
Syne runkled his jaickit: “A peer thing,” quo’ he,
“But – judgement's ur nae fat they eesed tae be.”

Tour de force, @BezMills - that helps with the soreness of saying goodbye to the Big Sond we'd thought (hoped?) we'd had.

SqueakyDinosaur · 14/12/2025 11:34

Apologies if already posted, but the legal blog Roll On Friday also posted a good overview a couple of days ago: Sandie Peggie judge accused of packing verdict with dodgy quotes - RollOnFriday https://share.google/9oweZ2twdg6hZXvaY

Sandie Peggie judge accused of packing verdict with dodgy quotes

Creative writing

https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/sandie-peggie-judge-accused-packing-verdict-dodgy-quotes

ILoveLaLaLand · 14/12/2025 11:44

SionnachRuadh · 13/12/2025 23:10

This may seem harsh, but I am really resistant to telling young people with neon hair and septum piercings that they have a protected characteristic.

Not at all. Goths don't have a protected characteristic.

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 14/12/2025 11:53

SqueakyDinosaur · 14/12/2025 11:34

Apologies if already posted, but the legal blog Roll On Friday also posted a good overview a couple of days ago: Sandie Peggie judge accused of packing verdict with dodgy quotes - RollOnFriday https://share.google/9oweZ2twdg6hZXvaY

The comments under this are well worth reading. Kemp is toast, one way or another.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 11:54

FabulousFryingpan · 14/12/2025 11:30

The Herald today with a long-ish article (paywall probably) discussing the flaws in the judgement from a factual point of view. Including the incorrect Forstater quotation, but also calling Not All Gays, 'not for gays'. Suggestions that AI may have been involved due to the misquotes and strange conclusions therein.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25694771.sandie-peggie-latest-nhs-fife-ruling-caused-chaos/?ref=eb&nid=2261&block=article_block_a&u=d69f9fbcb77b1fdc14109217fbe9cd63&date=141225

More for the record <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/2025.12.14-070123/www.heraldscotland.com/news/25694771.sandie-peggie-latest-nhs-fife-ruling-caused-chaos" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.is/2025.12.14-070123/www.heraldscotland.com/news/25694771.sandie-peggie-latest-nhs-fife-ruling-caused-chaos/

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 11:55

And another cracker of Kemps errors

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59
Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59
MyThreeWords · 14/12/2025 12:00

EdithStourton · 14/12/2025 09:37

I've got a violin somewhere, but it's so small that I can't find it...

Here it is:

I'm going to use the coding for bigly font now, to magnify it 10x:
🎻

ContentedAlpaca · 14/12/2025 12:01

Wow. I wonder where that study came from. Would it have been part of the evidence submitted or is he allowed to go off and look for his own studies?

teawamutu · 14/12/2025 12:02

Legal beagles: I've read that the appeal route could take up to 12 months, but for a cock-up of this magnitude and profile, is there any chance that it might be expedited?

lcakethereforeIam · 14/12/2025 12:03

Katy Gordon, in the Courier article upthread, talks of amicably sharing an open plan changing room with a man who claimed to be trans as though it was the same as Sandie Peggie's situation. Putting aside her assertion that they were just there to get changed, if it was no big deal why couldn't he do that in the men's? Or why didn't she come to that? She had chosen to put herself in that situation. She could have made provisions to avoid it. Arrived and gone home in her sports kit. Given up the sport, along with the other women who couldn't stomach changing with a male stranger. Those weren't options for Sandie. It was her job. She had to change for hygiene and patient safety. Also, as a hypothetical, Isla Bryson will be out of jail sooner or later. He may chose to take up that sport. Would she want to share a changing room with him or his ilk? Does she know how to reliably tell them apart? Can she share that with the rest of us?

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 14/12/2025 12:03

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 11:55

And another cracker of Kemps errors

I cringed when I read that. We all knew he was wrong; the evidence is clear and from multiple sources, but to miss the 18 times more likely than women part and claim there's no risk to women in having men in their spaces....? Whatever your opinion, if you're going to quote the study, that's what it says.

Each one of these errors are in themselves big and serious ones.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 14/12/2025 12:05

@Keeptoiletssafe Is there any direct evidence of the mixed-sex designs in schools directly contributing to the one-a-day school rape statistics?

MyThreeWords · 14/12/2025 12:12

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 11:55

And another cracker of Kemps errors

That is utterly shocking (assuming it turns out to be correct). If that was the ONLY error in the judgement it would be enough to utterly discredit it, and Kemp himself.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 12:15

seXX · 14/12/2025 08:58

The Courier have an opinion piece reminding everyone of the true victim of the tribunal... Have your bingo card ready!
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/5391844/trans-women-upton-real-victims-nhs-tribunal/
(If you can't read it, put the link in an incognito tab)

Very free with cancelling comments

Truth hurts Katy?

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59
Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59
weegielass · 14/12/2025 12:15

Its rare that I look forward to Monday but I wonder what the week ahead will bring and how much longer big Sond will stay in post

KTheGrey · 14/12/2025 12:16

NotanotherWeek · 13/12/2025 08:55

However, this is not just a lower court misunderstanding the FWS judgment. That happens, and the SC would leave that to the appeal process. This is egregious distortion of their words to reach a conclusion inimical to their judgment. It is astonishing. I can’t believe there won’t be words about that behind closed doors. They will be apoplectic. No litigant will agree to go before Kemp ever again, so he’ll have to go. But that won’t help Sandie, who has to plod on doggedly. It might give the EAT pause for thought, though, should they consider trying anything similar

I hope that Kemp will be quietly phased out for sure.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 14/12/2025 12:17

MyThreeWords · 14/12/2025 12:12

That is utterly shocking (assuming it turns out to be correct). If that was the ONLY error in the judgement it would be enough to utterly discredit it, and Kemp himself.

For Women Scotland retweeted it - I’m sure they’ve checked and I will later when home.

NotanotherWeek · 14/12/2025 12:19

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 14/12/2025 11:53

The comments under this are well worth reading. Kemp is toast, one way or another.

Alarming that several consider that the whole judgment will have to be thrown out, making a rehearing necessary. The only upside would be that Beth will have to try to keep the feminine act together all over again

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 14/12/2025 12:27

I wouldn't want to be unfair on Kemp. But this is quite the mounting list now. Has anyone identified an error in the judgment that goes the other way?

Oldandgreyer · 14/12/2025 12:29

TriesNotToBeCynical · 13/12/2025 00:03

And of course if individual judge's competence could too easily be called into question then we would not really have an independent judiciary.

Accuracy is different from competence, although they are very entwined.

Using falsehoods should instantly be acted upon by the Law Lords who should be deeply concerned.

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