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Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/12/2025 19:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025

OP posts:
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62
Peregrina · 14/12/2025 08:57

creepdar - a good word. I shall adopt it.

I wholly agree with the rest of your post.

I'm aware of course that there is no evidence that he is dangerous.
The fact that he's happy to go into women's changing rooms, when he knows women are hanging about outside waiting for him to finish, and then when a woman does stand up to him, does his best to wreck her career, shows that he's dangerous to me. They start with small steps....

Edited to add last paragraph.

prh47bridge · 14/12/2025 09:16

seXX · 14/12/2025 08:58

The Courier have an opinion piece reminding everyone of the true victim of the tribunal... Have your bingo card ready!
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/5391844/trans-women-upton-real-victims-nhs-tribunal/
(If you can't read it, put the link in an incognito tab)

The writer is not getting any support in the comments.

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 14/12/2025 09:16

BuoyedWithOptimisticIgnorance · 14/12/2025 08:45

Big Sond - I want to influence employment-law legislation

And how is that working out for you?

Or would it be unkind to ask? 😉

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 14/12/2025 09:33

Easytoconfuse · 14/12/2025 08:21

I'm not sure I understand this because I'm sure you're not saying that wheelchair users are the only ones who need adaptations. A good explanation of all the people who need accessible toilets is further up the thread.

Show quote history

It's more that I thought that an "ambulant" toilet with its crutches symbol was distinct from an "accessible" toilet with its wheelchair symbol, and that the accessible fulfilled the needs of both.

Peregrina · 14/12/2025 09:35

Would Upton still wish to be treated as a woman if he got testicular or prostate cancer I wonder? Fobbed off, told it was all his imagination and that he was hysterical?

Shortshriftandlethal · 14/12/2025 09:37

HildegardP · 13/12/2025 23:26

Tiny, very tiny cough but I wish I believed he had been "disinterested", ie; not motivated by any personal interest regarding the case. A disinterested judge is what one should expect. An "uninterested" judge on the other hand, ought not to be in court at all.

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Of course......well observed 😃

EdithStourton · 14/12/2025 09:37

seXX · 14/12/2025 08:58

The Courier have an opinion piece reminding everyone of the true victim of the tribunal... Have your bingo card ready!
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/5391844/trans-women-upton-real-victims-nhs-tribunal/
(If you can't read it, put the link in an incognito tab)

I've got a violin somewhere, but it's so small that I can't find it...

oldtiredcyclist · 14/12/2025 09:43

TriesNotToBeCynical · 13/12/2025 21:06

I know it is going to make me unpopular but it seems obvious on the numbers alone that trans-identifying people should use identical toilets to disabled toilets. Apart from the very small numbers, being trans could reasonably be regarded as a disability. And it is pointless (except for very specific building constraints) to build a single person toilet that is not suitable for disabled people. Any detriment to other disabled toilet users should be prevented by increasing the per capita number of disabled toilets, which in any case should obviously be higher than the per capita number of single sex toilet cubicles.

edit grammar

Edited
Show quote history

Absolutely disgraceful, disabled people do not identify or choose to be disabled.

weegielass · 14/12/2025 10:00

fucking Katy Gordon, of course it is

Peregrina · 14/12/2025 10:04

fucking Katy Gordon, of course it is

I wonder if she would be quite so sympathetic if a six foot bloke walked in on her when she was in the nuddy in a changing room?

weegielass · 14/12/2025 10:05

I used to work with her and she was always a fkn bampot

teawamutu · 14/12/2025 10:08

Peregrina · 14/12/2025 10:04

fucking Katy Gordon, of course it is

I wonder if she would be quite so sympathetic if a six foot bloke walked in on her when she was in the nuddy in a changing room?

I wonder if it has occurred to her, up on the shining moral high ground, that she is not everyone, and other women's consent is not hers to give?

BezMills · 14/12/2025 10:12

The Judgement

A Judgie sat in the courtroom's big cherr
An he thocht there wis niver a Judgie so ferr
He went ben the chambers, he waggled his pen,
An’ cockit his heid as he stood up for men,
The bigsy wee craitur was feeling that prood
As he laid doon the law an he laid it ticht good

"Gi'en ye'd a like tae see a richt Judgement", quo he
"Ye'll niver a sweer see a better nor he
Wi ref'rences citet, nae doobt shall remain
Thon nursie's wheesht haudit, her lawyer the same
Nae need fur much checkin, ah'm trustin ma feels
An ah ken ah'm a rale bonnie speller as weel
Ah'm nae gaun tae blaw but the truth a maun tell
I believe it's the verra MacJudgement itsel’.” …

A KC was hungry an’ needin’ tae sup,
Sae he nabbit th’ Judgement and gollup’t it up;
Syne runkled his jaickit: “A peer thing,” quo’ he,
“But – judgement's ur nae fat they eesed tae be.”

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 14/12/2025 10:19

Iamnotalemming · 13/12/2025 14:26

I don't think Kemp is having a break down. It's more likely a combination of arrogance and incompetence. I've come across many a male lawyer in my time who possess this pairing.

Plus Jane Russell?

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 14/12/2025 10:24

PrettyDamnCosmic · 13/12/2025 14:38

Why require repeated breaches of policy before instigating disciplinary action? Surely a TIM invading the Ladies once is enough? Given the potential for indecent exposure or voyeurism this should be regarded as gross misconduct resulting in instant dismissal.

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I don't think instant dismissal is warranted on the basis of "potential for indecent exposure or voyeurism", but a written warning might be appropriate.

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 14/12/2025 10:28

Love it, thank you @BezMills !

Ah'm trustin ma feels will hereafter be the byword in this house for any piece of sloppy, slapdash behaviour. Not sure I can do justice to a Fife accent but I'll give it a go.

DustyWindowsills · 14/12/2025 10:30

peakedtraybake · 14/12/2025 08:54

I also didn't expect, shitshow aside, that the judgment would go this way. I was aware (from these threads) that FWS didn't cover the workplace rules, so knew there may be an issue there. But Dr Upton set off my creepdar so very strongly that I was completely blind to the possibility that he would be considered credible.

The fake, overly gentle voice reminded me of someone furious who was either barely restraining themselves or pretending to be calm, but about to blow. The "I'm a biological woman" schtick told me this is a manipulative gaslighter, like the colleague who assaulted me. The admission that there was no way in which Peggie could have expressed her protected beliefs that he would have found acceptable or not hurtful revealed that he was an extreme authoritarian.

I find this combination terrifying, genuinely. And I thought that anyone would be able to see this a mile off.

It has been a useful learning experience to realize that the panel did not even glimpse the red flags that I thought would be visible from space.

I try to check my biases and #bekind but my instincts are clear that this is a man, and a very dangerous man. I'm aware of course that there is no evidence that he is dangerous. But this is my instinctive reaction to the lies, manipulation and authoritarianism. I clearly should have realized that this might not be shared by the judge, whose life has doubtless shaped his instincts very differently.

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I'm surprised Kemp was able to dismiss the tech witness Borwick's takedown of DU's "contemporaneous" notes. He seems to have swallowed JR's accusation that Borwick was biased. I saw that accusation as unprofessionalism on her part, and I thought Borwick's response ("Yes, I'm being paid, as are you") put it to rest.

What am I missing here? Is it just that JR knew all along that Kemp is an ignorant twit?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/12/2025 10:40

peakedtraybake · 14/12/2025 08:54

I also didn't expect, shitshow aside, that the judgment would go this way. I was aware (from these threads) that FWS didn't cover the workplace rules, so knew there may be an issue there. But Dr Upton set off my creepdar so very strongly that I was completely blind to the possibility that he would be considered credible.

The fake, overly gentle voice reminded me of someone furious who was either barely restraining themselves or pretending to be calm, but about to blow. The "I'm a biological woman" schtick told me this is a manipulative gaslighter, like the colleague who assaulted me. The admission that there was no way in which Peggie could have expressed her protected beliefs that he would have found acceptable or not hurtful revealed that he was an extreme authoritarian.

I find this combination terrifying, genuinely. And I thought that anyone would be able to see this a mile off.

It has been a useful learning experience to realize that the panel did not even glimpse the red flags that I thought would be visible from space.

I try to check my biases and #bekind but my instincts are clear that this is a man, and a very dangerous man. I'm aware of course that there is no evidence that he is dangerous. But this is my instinctive reaction to the lies, manipulation and authoritarianism. I clearly should have realized that this might not be shared by the judge, whose life has doubtless shaped his instincts very differently.

Show quote history

This.

Chersfrozenface · 14/12/2025 10:43

Bez's poem needs to go in The Big Book of Fifish Poetry.

If there isn't one, there ought to be. And every school and library in Fife should have a copy.

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 14/12/2025 10:44

DustyWindowsills · 14/12/2025 10:30

I'm surprised Kemp was able to dismiss the tech witness Borwick's takedown of DU's "contemporaneous" notes. He seems to have swallowed JR's accusation that Borwick was biased. I saw that accusation as unprofessionalism on her part, and I thought Borwick's response ("Yes, I'm being paid, as are you") put it to rest.

What am I missing here? Is it just that JR knew all along that Kemp is an ignorant twit?

Show quote history

I don't understand either. Someone up thread found an earlier ET case in which Borwick gave evidence before Kemp. I don't know the details but maybe there's 'history' between them which Kemp found himself unable to put aside. Disgraceful.

Easytoconfuse · 14/12/2025 10:49

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 14/12/2025 09:33

It's more that I thought that an "ambulant" toilet with its crutches symbol was distinct from an "accessible" toilet with its wheelchair symbol, and that the accessible fulfilled the needs of both.

Show quote history

I wish you were right. Most of all, I wish the sanitary needs of the wide variety of people with disabilities got the same amount of attention as a tiny group. There again, I'm not prepared to wee outside buildings to make my point.

But a simple example for you. I have rheumatoid arthritis. On a bad day I can't turn the lock or the taps on. On a good day I can use the everyday loos. Still, at least I'm now reaching the age when I'm pleased when someone tells me I'm too young to have arthritis. I've had it since I was 11.

Easytoconfuse · 14/12/2025 10:52

Peregrina · 14/12/2025 10:04

fucking Katy Gordon, of course it is

I wonder if she would be quite so sympathetic if a six foot bloke walked in on her when she was in the nuddy in a changing room?

Or if she was in a situation where she hadn't chosen to do it and would be the subject of a witch hunt because she wasn't comfortable about doing it. Or is that only a problem if you're a biological male who identifies as a woman. You'll note she didn't do any research on how many women feel uncomfortable with a man in the changing room. No one does because they wouldn't like the answer.

nicepotoftea · 14/12/2025 11:00

peakedtraybake · 14/12/2025 08:54

I also didn't expect, shitshow aside, that the judgment would go this way. I was aware (from these threads) that FWS didn't cover the workplace rules, so knew there may be an issue there. But Dr Upton set off my creepdar so very strongly that I was completely blind to the possibility that he would be considered credible.

The fake, overly gentle voice reminded me of someone furious who was either barely restraining themselves or pretending to be calm, but about to blow. The "I'm a biological woman" schtick told me this is a manipulative gaslighter, like the colleague who assaulted me. The admission that there was no way in which Peggie could have expressed her protected beliefs that he would have found acceptable or not hurtful revealed that he was an extreme authoritarian.

I find this combination terrifying, genuinely. And I thought that anyone would be able to see this a mile off.

It has been a useful learning experience to realize that the panel did not even glimpse the red flags that I thought would be visible from space.

I try to check my biases and #bekind but my instincts are clear that this is a man, and a very dangerous man. I'm aware of course that there is no evidence that he is dangerous. But this is my instinctive reaction to the lies, manipulation and authoritarianism. I clearly should have realized that this might not be shared by the judge, whose life has doubtless shaped his instincts very differently.

Show quote history

If they think lipstick is relevant to sex, it's difficult to know where to begin.

(After many years of being a woman, I still haven't worked out how to keep lipstick on for longer than 5 minutes, even when I do wear it. Having had a variety of hairstyles, I can now only assume that my sex is a mystery to others until I speak. If I have a cold it's anyone's guess).

BettyBooper · 14/12/2025 11:00

I remain frustrated at the lack of information about the other panel members.

Given the capture of the Trade Unions and the high probability that at least one had strong links to a TU, it seems to me that this should be public information.

This is a very high profile case and not knowing the potential bias of two thirds of the panel does not feel like open justice.

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