NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

[nauticant]

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

I wonder which version of the Bench Book EJ Kemp last read.

Someone, either here or on x, said the judgment quotes the Bench Book version prior to it's most recent update

No rest for Naomi Cunningham (or Naomi Campbell as Tribunal Tweets accidentally called her!) - she's at another GC tribunal today.

@ tribunaltweets
We are due to be live tweeting the final hearing of clinical psychologist, Dr Anne Woodhouse (AW), before the Health and Care Professions Tribunal Service (HCPTS) Conduct and Competence Committee in relation to posts on Twitter/X from 10am this morning.

Is that the version still preferred by the AI LLMs, I wonder?

Just wanted to re-post this from @flirtswithrhinos as it's one of the most powerful expressions of this I've read. I'm always trying to think of ways to put it that show the sheer sexist madness of it. Thank you.

"It is neither fair, nor reasonable, nor even possible to expect women's assessment of a man in a women-only space to be based on his self image."

Ha ha ha - this lad. How embarrassing for him. Maybe the latest version didn’t read as he’d like.

Good old Burke thought that too:
People crushed by law have no hopes but from power. If laws are their enemies, they will be enemies to laws

I don't think judges are getting worse:
It was back in 1980 that Judge Denning preferred to send innocent men back to prison for another 11 years, not on the basis of objective fact, but because allowing an appeal would mean
.. that the police are guilty of perjury, that they are guilty of violence and threats, that the confessions were invented and improperly admitted in evidence and the convictions were erroneous... This is such an appalling vista that every sensible person in the land would say that it cannot be right that these actions should go any further.

11 years later, they were exonerated and released, because Judge Denning's 'appalling vista' was what actually happened to them.

So I don't think that judicial decisions are worse now than they were in the past.

People on Bluesky are saying Baroness Falkner and Robin White will be on BBC Scotland from 18:30 tonight. Seems a shame that they haven't got a lawyer to go up against RW.

Jeepers that woman is doing the job of 3. Unlike Michelle ‘3 jobs’ Devlin. She couldn’t even do one properly.

Baroness Falkner on bbc radio Scotland, has called the judgement “surprising and unusual, raises lot of question, likely to be appealed, her heart goes out to SP, she would welcome an appeal as 1st line tribunal not binding”

I am so pleased that I'm not the only person who has to mentally check whether I have the correct "Naomi C"! Would that I had the seem typing speed and proficiency of TT.

Can I ask a qn of the legal bods: Is it too late for NC to re-examine Dr U and some of the other witnesses after the drip feed of evidence after they had given evidence? Or should NC and CE have requested it as soon as possible after the new disclosres?

I believe the version he quoted is the one that says you must use preferred pronouns for everyone even if they're your rapist

I'm wouldn't be surprised if Big Sond can't type - experience tells me that 'go to secretarial college, learn to type, it will stand you in good stead' is not carried on the Y chromosome😠

I made that mistake myself once😟
Here's how to tell Naomi Campbell and Naomi Cunningham apart:
if you do something wrong, Naomi Cunningham throws the book at you, whereas Naomi Campbell...
😁

This is the quote from the judgement:
24
...“Typically, it should be unproblematic for the judge to use the trans person’s preferred name and pronouns (“he/she” or “they”), regardless of whether they have obtained a GRC. However, where one side’s case hinges on the recognition of the biological sex of the trans person as crucial, and the other side on the recognition of their chosen identification, judges need to be careful not to let the choice of gendered pronouns give an appearance of bias, or that there is a predetermined conclusion. If possible, using the individual’s name instead of a pronoun where these pronouns are contested, or alternatively, the gender-neutral pronoun of “they” may help minimise offence towards, or the undermining of, an individual’s personal identification, while also not validating and giving it undue weight over the perceptions of others.”

Once the hearing ended, that was it. No further questioning of witnesses was allowed. The only way they can re-examine Upton and other witnesses now is if this case is sent back to be re-heard by a different tribunal, or in the context of one of SP's other cases.

The official page only gives the most recent version, from October 2025, and that is not that, of course. There was an announcement of a version published in April 2025 and I think the proceedings involved clarifying whether it was that or the previous version that was intended, as well as JR using the English version from time to time! I don't know if there are links to old versions somewhere?
https://judiciary.scot/home/media-information/publications/judicial-institute-publications

ETA ah, URL-guessing works. Here's the April 2025 version:
https://judiciary.scot/docs/librariesprovider3/judiciarydocuments/judicial-institute-publications/20250403-etbb.pdf
The quote in the judgement also does not come from this one. Not sure what the previous version was, will see if I can find it.

Here is the 2019 version of the ETBB which also does not contain that quote:
https://www.judiciary.scot/docs/librariesprovider3/judiciarydocuments/judicial-institute-publications/equal-treatment-bench-book.pdf

Ah, now they have to give the lad some chance.

I've checked - the judgment quotes the updated version
ETBB - July 2024 (May 2025 update)
17. Typically, it should be unproblematic for the judge to use the trans person’s preferred name and pronouns (“he/she” or “they”)...
is on p194

edited to say that the next two sections cover not using an alleged rapist's preferred pronouns and 'Witnesses should never be compelled to use the trans person’s preferred pronouns'.

Sigh. Here you go. The quote is from p194 of the ETBB for England and Wales. What's the betting this got pasted from something by JR? [ETA xpost with MarieDeGournay, sorry!]

https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/media/ah1n15rj/etbb-july-2024-may-2025-update.pdf

I read that as "Seems a shame that they haven't got a lawyer to go up against the Baroness."

Once again, I am in awe of the tenacity, attention to detail and eloquence of so many of you. I too have seen the crowing on reddit. And also the woohoo go girl/living your authentic life responses to those claiming "period pains" and to be producing "milk". Whilst biology might be a nebulous concept in this area, I am pretty sure the cramps come from having a uterus contracting to expel the little bed built up in case a fertilised egg popped in and wanted to burrow in and personally I only produced milk post-partum (maybe also pre, was a long time ago but the point remains...). Someone (maybe boiled beetle or an admirer of her oeuvre) posted many moons ago an image of a very scary beetle seated on a throne of crocs. Please post again but with an even scarier looking beetle. I would buy that t shirt too.

That's the sweetest explanation of where babies come from I've ever read❤

Actually this is infuriating. Here's what SK's judgement says just after that quote from the wrong (England and Wales) ETBB:
25.
That is guidance which we have broadly followed both during the hearing and in this Judgment, although we considered that not using pronouns for the second respondent was preferable to using that of “they” given that that is not the pronoun that the second respondent wished to be used as we understood it. There is separately an Equal Treatment Bench Book issued by the Judicial Institute, intended for civil and criminal courts in Scotland, which does not have the same level of guidance directly applicable to the circumstances in this case.
But in fact, the April 2025 Scottish ETBB at pp160-162 goes into considerable detail on the matter - far more detail than the one he does choose to use - in a rather balanced way.