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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

1000 replies

nauticant · 09/12/2025 07:55

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
64
Alpacajigsaw · 09/12/2025 12:36

EmmyFr · 09/12/2025 12:26

How on earth could the judge and panel square:

  • recognizing clearly that Upton is male and a biological male
  • Upton saying under oath "I'm female"
  • declaring Upton to be "truthful and convincing" ?

The three cannot logically hold all together.

Well exactly

This man has a degree in medicine for fucks sake. He no more “believes” he’s female than I believe I’m the Virgin Mary

NebulousSadTimes · 09/12/2025 12:37

SqueakyDinosaur · 09/12/2025 12:02

I was wondering about another bout of sending cards to SP. Would others be up for that?

I'm more inclined for each and every one of us who have had our safety detrimented by men in what were or should have been single sex spaces sending a card to TC Kemp.

I've no doubt he wouldn't deign to read them but the number of them should give him at least a little hint that he might have been just a tiny bit completely wrong.

MyrtleLion · 09/12/2025 12:40

Advice for anyone encountering a trans-identified man in the workplace.

Write it down. As soon as possible. Even if it is innocuous. Every single time.

Upton was believed because he wrote it down (even when it wasn't contemporaneous - which the police get castigated for, btw) and Sandie didn't.

usernameinserthere · 09/12/2025 12:41

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Peregrina · 09/12/2025 12:41

Instead, she was entitled to complain to her manager - and at that point action should have been taken to reflect her concerns.

Ideally then after her first conversation back in August, and email to her manager summarising what was discussed would have been in order. Then a follow up after her second complaint.

I did wonder whether Sandie being a nurse of some 30 years experience qualified via a non graduate route, which would have placed much less emphasis on keeping written records.

MarieDeGournay · 09/12/2025 12:43

EmmyFr · 09/12/2025 12:26

How on earth could the judge and panel square:

  • recognizing clearly that Upton is male and a biological male
  • Upton saying under oath "I'm female"
  • declaring Upton to be "truthful and convincing" ?

The three cannot logically hold all together.

In addition, ALL the NHSF/DrU witnesses completely and uncritically accepted his claim to be a biological female. They all used 'she' and 'her' and were very defensive of 'Beth'.

They all completely accepted poor little Beth's version of the incident with big, nasty, threatening SP. He first told it - shaking and sobbing - to Dr Pitt, who never seemed to consider that there just might be another side to the story, and that version became THE version in all following actions.

I remember we noted at the time that while the everybody from Dr Pitt onwards were very concerned about poor Beth's wellbeing after the incident, nobody had as much as a passing thought for Sandie's.

The judge finds all these people, who have no issue whatsoever in believing that Beth is woman, and never considered SP's side of the story- or even the existence of SP's side of the story - to be 'credible and reliable'.

MyThreeWords · 09/12/2025 12:43

NebulousSadTimes · 09/12/2025 12:37

I'm more inclined for each and every one of us who have had our safety detrimented by men in what were or should have been single sex spaces sending a card to TC Kemp.

I've no doubt he wouldn't deign to read them but the number of them should give him at least a little hint that he might have been just a tiny bit completely wrong.

I can understand the impulse, but I think that would be a really bad idea. It is important to allow the legal process to do its thing without populist pressures. Even though I am sure the letters would all be polite and so forth, it can't possibly be anything other than mildly intimidating to be subject to this sort of campaign. And think of the populist pressures the judiciary are already facing - demonising from the right in relation to due legal process for asylum seekers, mentally ill killers and so on; vexatious litigation and spurious threats of judicial review etc from TRAs.

TBH, im not sure letters to Peggie are a good thing either. I expect she would welcome being a little less in the limelight for a while at least. If I were her, I would find the letters added to the pressure and exhaustion.

SerafinasGoose · 09/12/2025 12:45

The second key point, according to the tribunal, is the law says that it is neither legal nor illegal for a transgender woman to use female changing rooms. What matters is whether a colleague complains about having to share that space.

It isn't good enough. It's nowhere near good enough. If ever we wanted an exemplar of why this isn't the case, and what happens to women who have the sheer, brass temerity to complain about a man in her space, Sandie Peggie is it.

I find this so disappointing in more ways than I can name. The recent SC judgement clearly states the meaning of a woman, and that if single sex spaces are designated as such then they must remain single sex.

If the SC had not arrived at that judgement at the opportune time it did, I'm almost certain the outcome for Sandie Peggie would have been different. She only scored a partial victory even with that clarification. Without it she'd have had even less leverage.

Also reading between the lines of NC having chosen to step down from Sex Matters at this particular moment. It's fine and dandy for the GLP to bring biased lawsuits, but apparently not okay for NC. Her position as chair for that organisation has already been challenged and questioned.

The absolute travesty, the difference in treatment for women who just don't seem to fucking matter at all, incenses me.

MyThreeWords · 09/12/2025 12:47

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Please DON'T do this.

We live in such polarised times that institutions are less and less able to do their job without pressures that can be (accidentally or deliberately) intimidating. See this story about charities, for eg, in todays guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/dec/09/uk-charities-face-culture-of-fear-as-threats-and-violence-surge

UK charities face ‘culture of fear’ as threats and violence surge

Exclusive: Charity Commission chief condemns public hostility towards staff helping women and refugees and at places of worship

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/dec/09/uk-charities-face-culture-of-fear-as-threats-and-violence-surge

SqueakyDinosaur · 09/12/2025 12:48

MyThreeWords · 09/12/2025 12:32

The last thread went by so fast that all I could see was smoke. So I'd be very grateful if anyone was able to mention links to any good-quality analysis of the judgement that might have already been posted.

(Sorry. I hate it when people make this sort of request. But I think I'd get rope-burn if I tried to get a handle on the posts since the judgement.

I thought this was very clear and helpful: https://x.com/Natasha_etc_/status/1998102183464534504

Thanks to whoever posted it initially!

Natasha (@Natasha_etc_) on X

One must assume, from reading this judgment, that the tribunal was more concerned with discouraging further litigation than with giving full and fearless effect to the Equality Act. At the heart of this case lies a straightforward question: does a bio...

https://x.com/Natasha_etc_/status/1998102183464534504

usernameinserthere · 09/12/2025 12:48

MyThreeWords · 09/12/2025 12:43

I can understand the impulse, but I think that would be a really bad idea. It is important to allow the legal process to do its thing without populist pressures. Even though I am sure the letters would all be polite and so forth, it can't possibly be anything other than mildly intimidating to be subject to this sort of campaign. And think of the populist pressures the judiciary are already facing - demonising from the right in relation to due legal process for asylum seekers, mentally ill killers and so on; vexatious litigation and spurious threats of judicial review etc from TRAs.

TBH, im not sure letters to Peggie are a good thing either. I expect she would welcome being a little less in the limelight for a while at least. If I were her, I would find the letters added to the pressure and exhaustion.

I am sure Sandie or someone on her behalf shared a video of all the opened cards of support she'd received. If they go via her solicitor she can choose to not open them.

Judge Kemp should be open to feedback if he performs in a highly negligent way..... I find the medical doctor who I know is biological male, but he says is biological female to be credible, and I can disregard the evidence that shows he tampered with evidence produced to the trial.

nauticant · 09/12/2025 12:49

The second key point, according to the tribunal, is the law says that it is neither legal nor illegal for a transgender woman to use female changing rooms. What matters is whether a colleague complains about having to share that space.

The clear invitation here is to make sure that woman shy away from making any such complaints. That takes us back a number of years.

OP posts:
usernameinserthere · 09/12/2025 12:50

Natasha

@Natashaetc

One must assume, from reading this judgment, that the tribunal was more concerned with discouraging further litigation than with giving full and fearless effect to the Equality Act.

At the heart of this case lies a straightforward question: does a biologically male employee have a legal right to undress in a female-only changing room?
For Women Scotland answered that question at the Supreme Court: women-only spaces are for biological women. Yet instead of applying that binding precedent, the tribunal awarded Sandie Peggie a technical win based on procedural failings and delay, while simultaneously undermining the legitimacy of her complaint. The effect is a ruling that says: “You were treated badly, but only because you reacted to a situation we pretend has no legal significance.”

For Women Scotland affirmed that sex in law means biological sex – not gender identity. That matters because single-sex spaces exist specifically to recognise biological difference. The tribunal contradicted that point. It acknowledged that one person was biologically female and the other biologically male, then declared that this distinction becomes irrelevant once clothing is removed – precisely when women are at their most vulnerable. In doing so, the tribunal ignored sex-based protections contained within the Equality Act at the very moment they are most needed.

The technical win deserves scrutiny. It is a sophisticated manoeuvre: the judgment is generous enough to grant Peggie a partial win, but not so generous as to uphold all her claims. It is, arguably, a savagely ingenious move – providing just enough success to dull enthusiasm for appeal, while ensuring that the most legally explosive question continues to bend to stonewall. The message is unmistakable: accept your crumbs and walk away.

The outcome is a legally incoherent position: sex is relevant enough to identify, but too controversial to enforce. The tribunal elevated employer preference above statutory entitlement. Because NHS Fife allowed a biologically male colleague into a women-only space, the court treated Peggie’s objection as unreasonable. When policy choices override legal rights, those rights have already been hollowed out.

One of the most troubling passages asserts there is insufficient evidence that a male person poses greater risk than a woman does. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of safeguarding. Safeguarding is not reactive – it is preventative. It exists because vulnerability begins at exposure. Voyeurism, indecent viewing, intimidation – these harms do not require physical contact. The tribunal’s logic would justify installing smoke alarms only after the fire has started.

In addition, there is a distinct tone of moral superiority – gender-critical beliefs are technically lawful, yet treated as socially defective. The implication is that Peggie was protected not because she was right, but because the law is obliged to tolerate her. A right that survives only in silence is no right at all.

This judgment leaves employers without clarity and women with fewer rights. The purpose of a judgment is not to maintain institutional comfort. It is to state the law. Peggie’s case presented a direct conflict – gender identity versus sex-based boundaries. The tribunal refused to resolve it in accordance with precedent. That refusal is the failure.

This is why Peggie should, in my view, appeal. Not for a different trophy, but because the law needs the courage this judgment lacked. If allowed to stand, it will be provided as proof of the proposition that single-sex rights are discretionary. That women’s privacy is conditional.

The emotional toll of continuing is something we should all recognise. Sandie Peggie has already shown a resilience most people will never be asked to demonstrate. But rights that depend on the stamina of those who defend them are already eroding.

Where fear governs the interpretation of rights, those rights are already being lost.

Natasha (@Natasha_etc_) on X

Feminist. Female. Book lover. Words are precision. Language matters. With the right words, truth is seen and minds ignite. 📚 banner courtesy of @moleatthedoor

https://x.com/Natasha_etc_

PrettyDamnCosmic · 09/12/2025 12:51

Peregrina · 09/12/2025 12:41

Instead, she was entitled to complain to her manager - and at that point action should have been taken to reflect her concerns.

Ideally then after her first conversation back in August, and email to her manager summarising what was discussed would have been in order. Then a follow up after her second complaint.

I did wonder whether Sandie being a nurse of some 30 years experience qualified via a non graduate route, which would have placed much less emphasis on keeping written records.

EJ Kemp decided for opaque reasons that this complaint to her manager was made in in October not August.

skilpadde · 09/12/2025 12:52

I think it would be a really bad idea for anyone to be writing to an ET judge about a published judgment, no matter your strength of feeling about it.

The appropriate next step would be for SP to submit an appeal, but clearly only if SP herself felt able and willing to take that on. She’s a hero, but I’m sure this process will be taking a toll.

EmmyFr · 09/12/2025 12:53

usernameinserthere · 09/12/2025 12:31

Cognitiive dissonance is common to believers in this novel ideology.

They have to believe multiple lies often.

Like trans women are women. They get skilled at it.

Of course, but they usually manage not to write it in a public judgment... (That's why they avoid debate in the first place). An APPEALABLE judgment at that! I'm absolutely not a lawyer, but would that not be a sufficient ground to appeal?

I mean, by their own admission, either Upton lied under oath or he's delusional. Either way, he cannot be preferred as a witness over someone else.

MarieDeGournay · 09/12/2025 12:54

MyThreeWords · 09/12/2025 12:43

I can understand the impulse, but I think that would be a really bad idea. It is important to allow the legal process to do its thing without populist pressures. Even though I am sure the letters would all be polite and so forth, it can't possibly be anything other than mildly intimidating to be subject to this sort of campaign. And think of the populist pressures the judiciary are already facing - demonising from the right in relation to due legal process for asylum seekers, mentally ill killers and so on; vexatious litigation and spurious threats of judicial review etc from TRAs.

TBH, im not sure letters to Peggie are a good thing either. I expect she would welcome being a little less in the limelight for a while at least. If I were her, I would find the letters added to the pressure and exhaustion.

I agree about letters to the judge.

Judges are a mixed lot, and they are human, but on the whole they are probably sincere in their judgements. Sometimes daft as brushes and demonstrably wrong wrong wrong in our opinion, but probably genuine.

There are egregious exceptions - Lord Denning and his disgraceful 'appalling vista' for example, but I think we should leave the judge alone, and keep poking holes in his judgement instead.

prh47bridge · 09/12/2025 12:57

I still have not read the full judgement, but enough to give an initial opinion. If anyone wants to point me towards specific paragraphs, I am happy to give an opinion on those.

As I said on the previous thread, it is unlikely to be possible to challenge the tribunal's findings of fact or their assessment of the credibility of witnesses unless new evidence becomes available undermining their findings.

A lot of the findings hinge on the tribunal's finding that it was not necessarily unlawful for NHS Fife to give Upton permission to use the changing rooms (paragraph 789). In my view this is wrong. They manage to bring in Pete the plumber by arguing that excluding men from the women's facilities would necessarily mean that no man could enter the women's facilities to make repairs. There is, however, a clear distinction between entering the women's facilities to use them and entering them for maintenance. Paragraph 801 is, in my view, nonsensical. And, as I said on the previous thread, both this judgement and the Leonardo judgement ignore the fact that, following FWS, if any men are allowed to use the women's facilities, regardless of whether they are trans-identifying, those facilities are no longer single sex under the EA, so any men can use them and the label on the door is useless. In my view, their interpretation of the Workplace Regulations renders the provisions requiring single sex provision meaningless.

This tribunal also, as with the Leonardo judgement, misuses Croft. Following Croft, it is clear that a man who is beginning his transition is not entitled to use the female facilities. And yet somehow, according to this tribunal, Croft justifies allowing Upton, who did not have a GRC at the time, to use the women's facilities.

My view is that this judgement is appealable. I may be wrong, but my view is that the judgement goes wrong in paragraph 789. Since most of the rest of the judgement appears to be predicated on that decision, that error undermines a large part of the outcome.

Shortshriftandlethal · 09/12/2025 12:58

SqueakyDinosaur · 09/12/2025 12:48

I thought this was very clear and helpful: https://x.com/Natasha_etc_/status/1998102183464534504

Thanks to whoever posted it initially!

"One must assume, from reading this judgment, that the tribunal was more concerned with discouraging further litigation than with giving full and fearless effect to the Equality Act.

At the heart of this case lies a straightforward question: does a biologically male employee have a legal right to undress in a female-only changing room? For Women Scotland answered that question at the Supreme Court: women-only spaces are for biological women. Yet instead of applying that binding precedent, the tribunal awarded Sandie Peggie a technical win based on procedural failings and delay, while simultaneously undermining the legitimacy of her complaint.

The effect is a ruling that says: “You were treated badly, but only because you reacted to a situation we pretend has no legal significance.” For Women Scotland affirmed that sex in law means biological sex – not gender identity. That matters because single-sex spaces exist specifically to recognise biological difference. The tribunal contradicted that point. It acknowledged that one person was biologically female and the other biologically male, then declared that this distinction becomes irrelevant once clothing is removed – precisely when women are at their most vulnerable. In doing so, the tribunal ignored sex-based protections contained within the Equality Act at the very moment they are most needed.

The technical win deserves scrutiny. It is a sophisticated manoeuvre: the judgment is generous enough to grant Peggie a partial win, but not so generous as to uphold all her claims. It is, arguably, a savagely ingenious move – providing just enough success to dull enthusiasm for appeal, while ensuring that the most legally explosive question continues to bend to stonewall. The message is unmistakable: accept your crumbs and walk away.

The outcome is a legally incoherent position: sex is relevant enough to identify, but too controversial to enforce. The tribunal elevated employer preference above statutory entitlement. Because NHS Fife allowed a biologically male colleague into a women-only space, the court treated Peggie’s objection as unreasonable. When policy choices override legal rights, those rights have already been hollowed out. One of the most troubling passages asserts there is insufficient evidence that a male person poses greater risk than a woman does. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of safeguarding. Safeguarding is not reactive – it is preventative. It exists because vulnerability begins at exposure. Voyeurism, indecent viewing, intimidation – these harms do not require physical contact. The tribunal’s logic would justify installing smoke alarms only after the fire has started.

In addition, there is a distinct tone of moral superiority – gender-critical beliefs are technically lawful, yet treated as socially defective. The implication is that Peggie was protected not because she was right, but because the law is obliged to tolerate her. A right that survives only in silence is no right at all. This judgment leaves employers without clarity and women with fewer rights. The purpose of a judgment is not to maintain institutional comfort. It is to state the law. Peggie’s case presented a direct conflict – gender identity versus sex-based boundaries.

The tribunal refused to resolve it in accordance with precedent. That refusal is the failure. This is why Peggie should, in my view, appeal. Not for a different trophy, but because the law needs the courage this judgment lacked. If allowed to stand, it will be provided as proof of the proposition that single-sex rights are discretionary. That women’s privacy is conditional. The emotional toll of continuing is something we should all recognise. Sandie Peggie has already shown a resilience most people will never be asked to demonstrate. But rights that depend on the stamina of those who defend them are already eroding. Where fear governs the interpretation of rights, those rights are already being lost"

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 09/12/2025 13:01

Anya Palmer
@ anyabike

Still making my way through the Peggie judgment, just found the novel conclusion in paras.1221-1222 that making an allegation which the tribunal clearly accepts amounts to an allegation of harassment was not however a protected act because it was not made to a manager... [she links to image 1]

The tribunal goes on to note that it could not find any authority, nor was it referred to any, on the question of to whom a complaint should be made. "Accordingly" it concludes the claimant has failed to prove that she did a protected act. [she links to image 2]

But the reason there is nothing on "the question of to whom a complaint should be made" is that section 27(2)(d), on which Sandie Peggie relied, does not say require the complaint to be made to any particular person or class of person. So that issue does not arise. [she links to image 3]

There isn't even a requirement that the allegation be made to someone who works for her employer, let alone that she make it to a manager. The only question is did she allege something that would amount to a breach of the Equality Act. She could make it to her hairdresser.

If someone overheard and it got back to her employer and they then subjected her to detriment because she made that allegation, it is no defence to say "but she didn't make it to one of our staff!" This is a really basic error, from a very experienced judge. Very odd.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57
prh47bridge · 09/12/2025 13:10

Agree with AnyaPalmer by the way. You can make a protected disclosure to the press, your local MP, your hairdresser or Joe down the pub. It doesn't cease to be protected just because you didn't make it to your manager or HR. That is, as she says, a fundamental error.

And I agree with Natasha_etc that the outcome of the tribunal is legally incoherent. The judgement tries to argue that stopping anyone who is biologically male from using the female facilities is legally incoherent, but that position is clearly consistent with FWS. It is their position that is legally incoherent.

I hope SP doesn't accept the partial win they have given her and appeals.

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 09/12/2025 13:13

Worth remembering that SK is a solicitor an EAT has a sitting barrister,

ProfessorBettyBooper · 09/12/2025 13:15

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 09/12/2025 13:13

Worth remembering that SK is a solicitor an EAT has a sitting barrister,

Sorry didn't understand this!

Alpacajigsaw · 09/12/2025 13:16

I didn’t follow the rationale on the protected act either. It’s very widely drawn in the Equality Act, it’s why employers often trip
themselves up and fail to identify victimisation risk

Manxexile · 09/12/2025 13:16

Not sure if this has already been raised, but isn't the real issue here that the SCJ copped out and singularly failed to grasp the nettle in the FWS judgment?

Although it would strictly have been obiter because the issue wasn't in front of them, they could easily have said that references to "men" and "women" in the Workplace Regulations should also be construed to refer to biological sex just as in the Equality Act. But they chose not to do that.

Yes, I know that back in 1992 the words "men" and "women" only had one possible significance (ie a reference to biological sex), but the SCJ explicitly did not do so when they probably should have done.

I'm not surprised an ET judge is reluctant to step where the SCJ apparently feared to tread[See note]

Apart from that the rest of the judgment (only Sandie complained, comparison of the credibility of the witnesses, the second respondent's appearance etc etc) is rubbish

[Note - Of course the SCJ may have belived this mess is not for them to sort out, but for the legislature...]

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