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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

1000 replies

nauticant · 09/12/2025 07:55

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
64
nauticant · 09/12/2025 07:57

New thread started in advance because I'm just about to dash out for some hours and the other thread is moving quickly towards being full.

My usual request: please would you hold back from posting on here until the previous thread is full. Thanks.

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 09/12/2025 11:46

I tried to make this the last post on thread 56

The End of the Thread is Nigh, and it would be nice to finish it with congratulations to Sandie on her win against NHSF, and thanks to Naomi and team for their work on behalf of Sandie, and all of us💚💜
but I was gazumpedSmile

Not a bad start to 57, I think.

soocool · 09/12/2025 11:55

How do you all know when the thread is reaching its 1000th post? I might be stupid (not unknown of me!), but I can't see a post counter.

Thanks to all who run the threads so efficiently and to all who contribute. It's such an education for lurkers like me.

Take a bow.

nauticant · 09/12/2025 11:58

Look at the top of the thread, at the end of the title. I'm somewhat familiar with that space now.

OP posts:
SqueakyDinosaur · 09/12/2025 12:02

I was wondering about another bout of sending cards to SP. Would others be up for that?

Iamnotalemming · 09/12/2025 12:02

I had in recent months been cheered in my soul every time I visited a new office or other public building with visitors and found the toilet signage updated. There have been a variety of approaches but nearly all maintained a SS toilet for women. I am now a little nervous that this work will be undone or undermined by the confusion created by this dog's dinner of a judgment.
Solidarity with Sandie and her legal team. I hope they have the strength to keep going. 💪

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 09/12/2025 12:02

Huge gratitude to Sandie for taking this on. If any gardening was ever required for an appeal, I expect there would be a huge number of people that would stand behind her. I understand that she must be absolutely exhausted and might not want to take it on though.

AnotherNewNameNow · 09/12/2025 12:03

Having read the judgment again this morning, I am now wondering whether the panel are trying to pull off some sort of stealth GC move. Are they really, (really?) attempting to set out in a legal judgment the standards of femininity required to access female single sex spaces? It's just such a bizarre thing to do, especially when it's followed by that single line paragraph about R2 and SP's height.

And the same "did I really just read that?!" could be applied in so many other places. I can't help but wonder whether it is a deliberate attempt to demonstrate the absurdity of attempting to apply case by case exceptions.

It also seems rather one sided in dealing with the behaviour of the parties and the behaviour of counsel. For example, NC's conduct is commented on, but not JR's - and there is plenty to comment on. The behaviour of R1 towards SP's legal team, which resulted in a remarkable intervention by CE, is not mentioned at all. This just seems... odd.

soocool · 09/12/2025 12:05

nauticant · 09/12/2025 11:58

Look at the top of the thread, at the end of the title. I'm somewhat familiar with that space now.

Ah yes, I see it now. Another gap in my education filled!

Thank you for all your work on these threads, I don't know how you keep up with it all. 👏👏👏

FigRollsAlly · 09/12/2025 12:05

The Leonardo judge seemed to think that women in that particular workplace would be safe from their male colleagues because everyone would have been vetted. EJ Kemp seems to be saying that there are no stats on the dangers of men in workplace single sex spaces so even if he had read the hyperlinks would they have contained such data?

usernameinserthere · 09/12/2025 12:07

Hello everyone - agree with @MarieDeGournay

Well done Sandie, Margaret, Naomi and Charlotte!! It is now harassment to have a man in the changing room and allowing the situation to fester.

We can now say we need seperate spaces and expect them to be provided.

If you want to send postcards, letters or fanmail:

Margaret Gribbon is now a Consultant at the address below. Send mail to Sandie Peggie and Margaret are there.

McGrade + Co
Employment Lawyers
94 Hope Street, Glasgow, G2 6PH

Naomi Cunningham and Dr Charlotte Elves are at
The Outer Temple
222 Strand
London
WC2R 1BA

usernameinserthere · 09/12/2025 12:08

And since the fight continues - you can garden for the Darlington Nurses

Google - Support the Darlington Nurses

Or donate to Sex Matters

sex-matters.org/take-action/donate/

WearyAuldWumman · 09/12/2025 12:09

Someone in the previous thread mentioned Fife Council...I'm telling you now: Fife Council is pretty much captured.

MarieDeGournay · 09/12/2025 12:10

SqueakyDinosaur · 09/12/2025 12:02

I was wondering about another bout of sending cards to SP. Would others be up for that?

And/or donations to Sex Matters - who are now minus NC😔
There's a donate button on their homepage
Sex Matters - It shouldn’t take courage to say so

I emailed them so they know that any uptick in donations is probably usSmile

MarieDeGournay · 09/12/2025 12:11

sorry Username, crossed with your post re Sex Matters.

Justnot · 09/12/2025 12:11

I went out yesterday morning, got back to mayhem and doubt I will ever catch up on the last couple of threads - thanks to everyone as always for commenting and explaining. No thanks to those posters pissing on our already pissed on parade.

ProfessorDrPrunesqauler · 09/12/2025 12:14

WearyAuldWumman · 09/12/2025 12:09

Someone in the previous thread mentioned Fife Council...I'm telling you now: Fife Council is pretty much captured.

Agree
but their building control department have to act if there’s a breach
or
What’s the point in having buildings regs at all if we can all ignore them

To ignore would be setting a precedent but. we’ll have to wait for Brigid Phillipson I’m guessing

ThreeWordHarpy · 09/12/2025 12:17

soocool · 09/12/2025 12:05

Ah yes, I see it now. Another gap in my education filled!

Thank you for all your work on these threads, I don't know how you keep up with it all. 👏👏👏

The other way to keep an eye on it is if you go to the forum itself, each thread lists how many replies are on there. You probably already notice which threads are “popular” when scanning down the thread list.

EmmyFr · 09/12/2025 12:26

How on earth could the judge and panel square:

  • recognizing clearly that Upton is male and a biological male
  • Upton saying under oath "I'm female"
  • declaring Upton to be "truthful and convincing" ?

The three cannot logically hold all together.

Peregrina · 09/12/2025 12:27

It is possible for NHS Fife to appeal the judgement? Because despite the jubilation from the male trans lobby, they did lose.

How does this affect the case against the three medical people?

AnotherNewNameNow · 09/12/2025 12:29

Peregrina · 09/12/2025 12:27

It is possible for NHS Fife to appeal the judgement? Because despite the jubilation from the male trans lobby, they did lose.

How does this affect the case against the three medical people?

Fife would have to demonstrate that the findings against it were made due to an error in law. I think that would be pretty difficult...

The other claims are separate 🙂

usernameinserthere · 09/12/2025 12:30

Reasons to celebrate from this judgment

On sex realist views and need for single sex spaces for sex realists

The first key part of this particular ruling suggests they will have to be even-handed in the way they deal with cases like this in future.

We now know that, in this tribunal's finding, Ms Peggie was entitled to complain in a reasonable way when she found herself sharing a changing room with a transgender colleague.

It was not necessarily instantly bigoted, or illegal, or a sacking offence, to speak out, as some senior colleagues at NHS Fife seemed to think.

Instead, she was entitled to complain to her manager - and at that point action should have been taken to reflect her concerns.

It said Ms Peggie's suspension was unfair and unjust. She was harassed by NHS Fife health board.

The second key point, according to the tribunal, is the law says that it is neither legal nor illegal for a transgender woman to use female changing rooms. What matters is whether a colleague complains about having to share that space.

This view is not binding and is likely to be contested in other cases.

However, bosses across the UK will take heed of this ruling.

They know they cannot immediately take sides - even if they want to.
Instead, they will have to strike a balance to ensure everyone's rights are respected.

From today women have more tools in their arsenal to challenge employers.

That is something. And the fight continues. Well done Sandie and team! Hurrah!

usernameinserthere · 09/12/2025 12:31

EmmyFr · 09/12/2025 12:26

How on earth could the judge and panel square:

  • recognizing clearly that Upton is male and a biological male
  • Upton saying under oath "I'm female"
  • declaring Upton to be "truthful and convincing" ?

The three cannot logically hold all together.

Cognitiive dissonance is common to believers in this novel ideology.

They have to believe multiple lies often.

Like trans women are women. They get skilled at it.

MyThreeWords · 09/12/2025 12:32
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The last thread went by so fast that all I could see was smoke. So I'd be very grateful if anyone was able to mention links to any good-quality analysis of the judgement that might have already been posted.

(Sorry. I hate it when people make this sort of request. But I think I'd get rope-burn if I tried to get a handle on the posts since the judgement.

usernameinserthere · 09/12/2025 12:35

@justabaker are your team keeping up with press?

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