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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

1000 replies

nauticant · 09/12/2025 07:55

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

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64
Boiledbeetle · 10/12/2025 18:15

Totallygripped · 10/12/2025 17:58

Once again, I am in awe of the tenacity, attention to detail and eloquence of so many of you. I too have seen the crowing on reddit. And also the woohoo go girl/living your authentic life responses to those claiming "period pains" and to be producing "milk". Whilst biology might be a nebulous concept in this area, I am pretty sure the cramps come from having a uterus contracting to expel the little bed built up in case a fertilised egg popped in and wanted to burrow in and personally I only produced milk post-partum (maybe also pre, was a long time ago but the point remains...). Someone (maybe boiled beetle or an admirer of her oeuvre) posted many moons ago an image of a very scary beetle seated on a throne of crocs. Please post again but with an even scarier looking beetle. I would buy that t shirt too.

I don't think the original was one of mine. So I've recreated the scene with a scary beetle.

And a Christmas edition!

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57
Majorconcern · 10/12/2025 18:22

Wow!

Totallygripped · 10/12/2025 18:24

MarieDeGournay · 10/12/2025 18:02

That's the sweetest explanation of where babies come from I've ever read❤Smile

There would also be the I am going to co opt your circulatory system and trick your immune system. Which personally I find amazing.

MyAmpleSheep · 10/12/2025 18:25

Massie writes:

It seems worth recalling that Upton’s self-realisation is so expansive it encompasses the belief he is “biologically female”. Well, bully for him. I am afraid that this impossibility brings to mind HL Mencken’s waspish assertion that we should indeed “respect” another fellow’s religion “but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart”.

Ouch! Mencken and Upton, both scoring high on the misogny scale there, one feels...

Totallygripped · 10/12/2025 18:32

Boiledbeetle · 10/12/2025 18:15

I don't think the original was one of mine. So I've recreated the scene with a scary beetle.

And a Christmas edition!

The one I am thinking of was much scarier (but very much inspired by you). If Ridley Scott did beetles and crocs. I look back fondly to the idle times when you went to tea with Rupert the Bear and Fifer thought Big Sond was on the ball...

NaomiCunninghamHasHadHerWeetabixAgain · 10/12/2025 18:40

Watching Robin Moira White on BBC Scotland News suggest that the judge has worked very hard on the judgement and it’s been recognised as being thorough. Aye, really?! Has it? 😂

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 18:42

We still don't know anything about what time the press conference is tomorrow or how we can watch, do we? Naomi's supposed to be in court tomorrow so it may be "just" Sandie and Margaret Gribbon... Even so, there is not enough popcorn in the world.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 10/12/2025 18:46

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 18:42

We still don't know anything about what time the press conference is tomorrow or how we can watch, do we? Naomi's supposed to be in court tomorrow so it may be "just" Sandie and Margaret Gribbon... Even so, there is not enough popcorn in the world.

I’ve got my work’s Chrimbo doo and I’m more excited about this.

AuntieMsDamsonCrumble · 10/12/2025 18:49

I do hope that the ET judge in the Darlington Nurses case is picking up on the reaction Judge Kemp is receiving for his obfuscation of the facts of law.

Mochudubh · 10/12/2025 18:50

I'm going to try to phrase this carefully, to avoid being too personal and getting deleted.

Would the average evening news watcher in Scotland, unfamiliar with some of the more "weel kent names" active in this area, immediately realise that someone asked for comment on the judgement, lets say a discrimination barrister, identified as anything other than a man with slightly long hair or would they see exactly that?

(I have a feeling I have not succeeded in my aim in my first sentence but heigh ho).

Mochudubh · 10/12/2025 18:54

If I posted DH's reaction to said barrister, it would definitely be deleted. Suffice to say it started with "Furfuksake"

Peregrina · 10/12/2025 18:57

One thing puzzles me - I think NHS Fife said that there were some other trans identifying males working for them. How did they behave? Did they use the correct (i.e. male) loos, and if they did, probably no one would be too bothered about their general behaviour,

AuntieMsDamsonCrumble · 10/12/2025 19:01

Am I thinking of another case, or do I recall Judge Kemp referring to Upton as "the victim" at one point?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 10/12/2025 19:02

I am genuinely shocked at what is coming out about the fictitious quotes in the judgement. Wings over Scotland has found misquote of the SC in Lee v Ashers (the gay marriage cake case) as well as the FWS edited quote. Maya Forstater has also found a misquote of her judgement. The judge has quoted statements that just don’t appear in the judgements. The editing of the FWS quote was bad but 2 apparently fictitious quotes from leading discrimination cases is awful.

This is straying from bad decision making into something else…

BuoyedWithOptimisticIgnorance · 10/12/2025 19:02

Massie quiting Wings Over Scotland, in the Times. Wow.

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 10/12/2025 19:05

I am now thinking it is important that these TRA judges are hunted out in to the open for a serious culling. Which seems to me to be what is happening.

The public criticisms i have seen thus far are all legal commentary's in nature, (as opposed to political) is quite extraordinary.

I am hoping NC already has a plan, cannot imagine she would not have.

I think because of the top down nature and capture of public sector bodies and governments, means it was always going to be a battle fought in the courts and not on the ground.

This is like an ideological game of chess.

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 10/12/2025 19:07

I forgot to add surely a forensic expert could establish that his judgement was created with the use of AI

BuoyedWithOptimisticIgnorance · 10/12/2025 19:11

Hedgehogsrightsarehumanrights · 10/12/2025 19:07

I forgot to add surely a forensic expert could establish that his judgement was created with the use of AI

Perhaps Jim Borthwick will do this one for free Grin

weegielass · 10/12/2025 19:11

I did wonder myself if it had been written with the help of AI!

Peregrina · 10/12/2025 19:12

No, they will probably go for the sixth best option.

Catiette · 10/12/2025 19:19

Now trying to follow 2 threads simultaneously, so I can stay up to date with this one and also catch up on the last - while also doing my tax return. Hm. A task only slightly harder than making sense of the judgement...

This paragraph again...

“I can accept, at any rate for present purposes, that the unconditional introduction of a transgender woman into the general population of a women’s prison carries a statistically greater risk of sexual assault upon non-transgender prisoners than would be the case if a non-transgender woman were introduced. But that statistical conclusion takes no account of the risk assessment which the policies require."

...feels huge. Doesn't it, like that awful Australian lift video, demonstrate why, to some people, our only possible reason not to want to share spaces with trans women must be prejudice, as there's no other "material" substance for it? It feels offensively disingenuous on Pink News, but to see it in a tribunal judgement... It's reality denial writ large. I'd first wondered if it was a kind of "the-facts-presented-in-court-don't-prove-this-so-my-hands-are-tied" kind of thing, then remembered that facts in this (any?) legal context can include certain "everyone-knows-this" type facts too (technical term!) - and the Blackbelt Barrister guy seems to confirm this?

It highlighted to me (as if I needed it) just how Orwellian - and dangerous for women and girls - this ideology is. Because the only explanation for that paragraph is surely ideological capture.

It's all driving me, semi-seriously, to see the Buffy revolution ("Girls can kick ass too!") as authentically dangerous, at least until everyone gets their head screwed back on right. I won't forgive this ideology for a lot, but making me see the (kind of) feminist (crop tops, Whedon, I know - it's complicated...) Buffy as disempowering girls is a new one. How have all our steps forward been turned so insidiously against us?!

usernameinserthere · 10/12/2025 19:23

BuoyedWithOptimisticIgnorance · 10/12/2025 19:11

Perhaps Jim Borthwick will do this one for free Grin

I would crowd fund that to high heavens. Jim for the Win!

NebulousSupportPostcard · 10/12/2025 19:24

@MarieDeGournayThis is prob already answered but just in case, it was Robin Moira White who wrote submission for TransLucent, as noted in tonight's BBC interview, and summarised here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c75v1d6npr1o

A portrait of a woman, shown from the shoulders up, with a dark background and soft lighting. She has medium-length blonde hair that is neatly styled.

Former UK equality chief questions Sandie Peggie tribunal ruling

Nurse Sandie Peggie complained about a transgender doctor using a female changing room in a Fife hospital.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c75v1d6npr1o

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 10/12/2025 19:24

CraftyRedBird · 10/12/2025 10:11

But then who is supposed to allowed to use the single sex and who is supposed to use single occupancy? What happens if that single occupancy is occupied?

We've had one tribunal judgment saying Dr. Upton should have been moved out and another saying a transgender colleague using the women's was acceptable because there was a single occupancy toilet further away.

I think most women and even men are quite used to having to wait.

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