NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

[nauticant]

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

To save anyone else, neither does "create" in anything like the "quote", so it isn't, for example, that there's a mis-spelling of "hierarchy" in the judgement that stops the quotation being found. (I expect Maya knows it by heart anyway!)

I've been to various European cities. Plenty of unisex bathrooms there. In Paris the only same sax bathrooms I saw were at the CDG airport and a shopping centre. AFAIK people there go about their business without any complaints.

That's pretty shocking.

I've only read selected "highlights" from the 300-page judgement, and as IANAL, the rest of it would probably go over my head anyway. But the quotes I've read do strike me as having that university essay quality of constantly trying to balance one side against the other — a trait that AI mimics only too well.

Perhaps somebody should have told Judge Kemp that his job is different: he's supposed to judge.

I know ChatGPT has now been mentioned, but, given Judge Kemp's insistence on using only evidence very clearly put before him, I wondered ...
Wasn't there a statement from a representative of a trans advocacy organisation admitted into evidence, uncontested? Might Kemp have taken his quotes directly from that (which we haven't seen), as it was 'put before him'?

Edited to add: And the other quote, too

Single occupancy loos are one thing but there’s no way they can do single occupancy changing rooms. My changing room has 75 lockers for roughly that number of women. If I touch my locker with my fingertips and spread my arms I very nearly touch the opposite wall. It’s not a big room. At busy shift changeover times you have to wait for people to move to get to your locker or to go past to reach the coat hooks on the end wall. How could they magic up even, say 20 single occupancy rooms for which people would be queuing. Where would the lockers go? Or would you have to only use the room containing your own locker?
The changing room also has two loos and a shower cubicle running along the far wall, just partitioned, not floor to ceiling. When coming in from my travel to work I use the toilet before changing. If I need to use the shower for some reason - I sometimes need to change scrubs mid shift or want to shower before leaving - I will probably use toilet and shower. These facilities all need to be available within the same space.
If Darlington Rose rocked up in there there would be an outcry. His size would take up most of the available space, it would be impossible to pass him without brushing past and touching.

Well, Christinapple, I am most surprised at that. I was in Paris in the summer.for more than a week, and I found single sex toilets in every single place I visited.

Did you not manage to visit the Sacre Cœur, the Eiffel Tower, the L'arc de Triomphe (de Ètoile), the Louvre? These all had single sex toilets.

I wonder whether Sandy Kemp knows yet that these quotes have been spotted? And how he's feeling this morning? Further to my post further up, if he did indeed use AI, it's possible he didn't even know until now that "his" judgement contained made-up quotes. (I take crabbyoldbat's point that - especially given he doesn't like clicking on links! - he may have taken them from erroneous evidence; but given the other stuff in the judgement, I don't think that saves him.) What next? Appeal isn't enough, is it?

It's funny, isn't it, how having a small, dependent human being in your sole care, makes you notice toilet provision more.

This is an interesting suggestion. If a statement was accepted uncontested - where does that leave the blame for inaccurate quotes? Surely the judge has to check the accuracy of quotes from legal precedents.

Surely the Judge isn’t so arrogant as to believe that nobody (and there will be a lot of “experts” reading his judgement) would bother to check his citations?

I’m going to be charitable and assume he messed up so badly so as to ensure that he never has to sit another TWAW Tribunal.

Once again, it rather explains the recusal application in Belfast.

Vic Valentine for Scottish Trans?

I'd like to hear Charlotte Elves on this so-called 'judgment'. I think 'bung it all in AI and sit back' is a contender for The Sixth Worst Option.

Surely fabricating stuff is a disciplinary offence? Is there any body overseeing judges?

This is the big question, isn't it? I mean, in any other job where you're a) making up quotes b) doctoring quotes to say what you want them to say c) completely misinterpreting and misrepresenting the facts, that would be a disciplinary issue. So what are the consequences for judges, if any?

I saw on Twitter yesterday that he was the judge in the Gillian Philip case - this was something I'd completely forgotten, but it was an early signal that there wasn't going to be a reasonable outcome.

But then who is supposed to allowed to use the single sex and who is supposed to use single occupancy? What happens if that single occupancy is occupied?

We've had one tribunal judgment saying Dr. Upton should have been moved out and another saying a transgender colleague using the women's was acceptable because there was a single occupancy toilet further away.

Here's an article about lawyers, helping with litigants in person, using AI generated citations. In this case the judge said

I make clear that where (as seems at least possible here) the citation was included in a document authored or reviewed by a lawyer, without attribution, whether for reward or pro-bono, for use by the litigant in person, that lawyer may, upon identification, be subject to a reference for misconduct or potential contempt.’

This must apply to judges using AI citations as well as lawyers

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/warning-to-lawyers-helping-lip-with-ai-generated-authorities/5125323.article

I'd hope so. As a PhD student, I'd get stuff all grace or forgiveness for falsifying my research, so I'd like to think there's a similar standards for the judiciary!

https://www.complaints.judicialconduct.gov.uk/rulesandregulations/Employment%20Tribunal%20(Scotland)%20%E2%80%93%20Making%20a%20complaint%20of%20Judicial%20Misconduct%20about%20an%20Employment%20Judge

https://judiciary.scot/docs/librariesprovider3/judiciarydocuments/complaints/complaints-about-the-judiciary-(scotland)-rules-2024.pdf

(I haven't read these, just googled for them.)

My daughter’s workplace was in the process of altering their loos into male, female and gender neutral. The work had just started but has now been put on hold as probably not necessary because of the result. They are waiting for clarification. Something needs to be done urgently to clarify this. There are even MPs in the Scottish Government standing up and declaring this as law.

'The LPO [French equivalent of the RSPB] says France continues to kill millions of [wild] birds every year. Some of the “traditional” methods used involve huge nets, wire nooses that strangle the birds, or traps that crush the birds with stones. As it did for decades with chasse à la glu, the French government has allowed exemptions from the EU directive.'

Are you happy about this too? Or do you believe the UK Government and our judiciary can, and should, make better, kinder and more responsible decisions for its people?

The UK Supreme Court's judgement is wholly clear that if a changing room (or a rape victim support group or a prison or a sports competition) has women on the sign this means ALL trans women MUST be excluded. GRCs are irrelevant. All trans women are men so are rightly excluded.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/23/struggle-to-save-europe-songbirds-aoe

Just to come back to this as it’s important.

Having read all (too few) the coroners reports featuring toilet deaths, there were only a couple of which I was aware.

There’s more that should be on there that’s not being reported. I can understand the reticence as I had it yesterday. Also I am very familiar with building standards now so I know when toilet designs don’t conform, whereas I expect coroner’s are not. As we veer further away from the standard provision that prioritised health and safety, there’s going to be more incidents.

I'm just back from a work trip which included France (Toulouse), Germany and the Netherlands and there wasn't a unisex bathroom anywhere (unless you count the ones in small cafes/restaurants which sometimes only have on toilet anyway). I actually paid attention to this. I wish people would stop making these claims.