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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

1000 replies

nauticant · 09/12/2025 07:55

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

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64
CraftyRedBird · 10/12/2025 10:27

I can't from a quick Google see Gillian's judgment.

It's unfortunate tribunals have to be appealed largely on (points of) law.

It felt to me, though IANAL, that the Judge opined on a lot of matters without need and made unbalanced and unnecessary points.

Such as deciding that Sandie had identified Dr. Upton's sex by height and hand size.

As an experienced A&E nurse I'm pretty sure she can tell a 6 foot woman from a 6 foot man!

ItsCoolForCats · 10/12/2025 10:30

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 09:20

(I've only just made this connection and am having trouble keeping up, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have already said, but:)[ETA omg, and I typed this before I knew about the completely fabricated quotation from Maya's judgement.]

The fact that Sandy Kemp seems to think it's ok for him to doctor a quotation from the Supreme Court doesn't half shed light on how he seems to think it's ok for Upton to have doctored his "contemporaneous" notes, don't you think?

Serious question: what goes through these men's minds, in the interval between it occurring to them that it would serve their purposes to do something like this, and them actually doing it? Full disclosure, there have been occasions when I've wished something said something else instead of what it does say, and have wondered what would happen if I just proceeded as though it did...but then, quite apart from the morality issues which I do care about, I immediately assume that if I care about it enough to contemplate doing such manipulation, very likely someone else also cares enough to check, and that being caught out would be many times worse than dealing with reality. Why don't they think like that? Do they just assume, on the basis of experience, that they can get away with it? I suppose so.

I suppose NC's press conference tomorrow is unlikely to go into such details, but I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when they noticed this point.

Edited

NC is doing a press conference?

DrRevProfCriticalConditionETC · 10/12/2025 10:30

I was puzzled by the decision to give the parties only 3 hours notice of the judgment instead of the agreed 5 days. But given the number of obvious misquotes, inaccuracies and apparent fabrications found after only two days, can you imagine how many will be found after five? No wonder the judge didn't want to give Naomi and her team a whole week to go over it.

prh47bridge · 10/12/2025 10:33

This is venturing well outside my expertise so I am not saying this definitively, but missing crucial words from judgements and making up a quote from Forstater for me pushes this into territory where it may be possible to claim bias. However, I'm not sure SP would want to go down that route as, if successful, it means starting again from scratch with a re-hearing by a different tribunal. I would fully understand if she doesn't want to put herself through that. But I hope she appeals at least some of this judgement. Open defiance of the SC by an ET cannot be allowed to stand.

Itsnearlymybirthday · 10/12/2025 10:36

prh47bridge · 10/12/2025 10:33

This is venturing well outside my expertise so I am not saying this definitively, but missing crucial words from judgements and making up a quote from Forstater for me pushes this into territory where it may be possible to claim bias. However, I'm not sure SP would want to go down that route as, if successful, it means starting again from scratch with a re-hearing by a different tribunal. I would fully understand if she doesn't want to put herself through that. But I hope she appeals at least some of this judgement. Open defiance of the SC by an ET cannot be allowed to stand.

.

Keeptoiletssafe · 10/12/2025 10:38

Coffeeandcataddict · 10/12/2025 10:12

My daughter’s workplace was in the process of altering their loos into male, female and gender neutral. The work had just started but has now been put on hold as probably not necessary because of the result. They are waiting for clarification. Something needs to be done urgently to clarify this. There are even MPs in the Scottish Government standing up and declaring this as law.

If you are in England, wave Document T at them. If they query whether men and women mean men and women in this document, refer them to Kemi Badenoch’s comments who championed this document.

If you want a good summary of what’s gone wrong in schools who changed to gender neutral, this is a good article:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175
You would hope office staff behave better but the enclosed designs are the ones adults go in for sex and to take drugs as it’s pretty obvious you don’t have witnesses.

Healthwise this sums it up if they want a healthy workforce: https://salus.global/article-show/pathogen-findings-raise-concerns-about-move-to-unisex-hospital-facilities

The healthiest and safest designs are single sex with door gaps. Ambulant toilets within the single sex provision. And importantly the accessible toilet(s) should be as visible and monitored as possible.

SALUS - Article - Pathogen findings raise concerns about move to unisex hospital facilities

https://salus.global/article-show/pathogen-findings-raise-concerns-about-move-to-unisex-hospital-facilities

DrRevProfCriticalConditionETC · 10/12/2025 10:41

I note that the 'specialist discrimination law KC' does not put his or her name to this analysis. Why would that be, I wonder? 🤔

EmmyFr · 10/12/2025 10:43

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 09:20

(I've only just made this connection and am having trouble keeping up, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have already said, but:)[ETA omg, and I typed this before I knew about the completely fabricated quotation from Maya's judgement.]

The fact that Sandy Kemp seems to think it's ok for him to doctor a quotation from the Supreme Court doesn't half shed light on how he seems to think it's ok for Upton to have doctored his "contemporaneous" notes, don't you think?

Serious question: what goes through these men's minds, in the interval between it occurring to them that it would serve their purposes to do something like this, and them actually doing it? Full disclosure, there have been occasions when I've wished something said something else instead of what it does say, and have wondered what would happen if I just proceeded as though it did...but then, quite apart from the morality issues which I do care about, I immediately assume that if I care about it enough to contemplate doing such manipulation, very likely someone else also cares enough to check, and that being caught out would be many times worse than dealing with reality. Why don't they think like that? Do they just assume, on the basis of experience, that they can get away with it? I suppose so.

I suppose NC's press conference tomorrow is unlikely to go into such details, but I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when they noticed this point.

Edited

Why shouldn't she mention that some quotes were doctored ? It is absolutely factual, very quick to state and not a detail.

SionnachRuadh · 10/12/2025 10:43

DrRevProfCriticalConditionETC · 10/12/2025 10:41

I note that the 'specialist discrimination law KC' does not put his or her name to this analysis. Why would that be, I wonder? 🤔

I think we'll find that they go to a different school.

Or possibly, because Jolyon keeps telling us multiple specialist KCs agree with him, he just hasn't figured out yet that his friends will tell him anything just to shut him up.

ProfessorBinturong · 10/12/2025 10:44

deadpan · 09/12/2025 17:25

I still don't get why he was regarded as credible/reliable when he doctored (no pun intended) the supposedly contemporaneous notes on his phone.
And why has the fact that he chose to go to a nurses changing room and not one for drs been ignored.

Edited, I'm several pages behind and NSP got there first with the answer.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 10/12/2025 10:56

Christinapple · 10/12/2025 09:44

I've been to various European cities. Plenty of unisex bathrooms there. In Paris the only same sax bathrooms I saw were at the CDG airport and a shopping centre. AFAIK people there go about their business without any complaints.

Same sax bathrooms? Only on Jazz Ship, surely?

MarieDeGournay · 10/12/2025 10:57

Re TiM's believing, or not, that they are actually biological women: I noticed a shift over the past years, they started out with hardline TWAW: transwomen are women just like any other women and how dare you suggest that TWs are in any way different from all other women, that's transphobic.

Possibly because out there in the wider public nobody really believed that TWAW, there was a shift towards, well of course everybody knows you can't change sex, what a silly idea, all we are saying is that we have changed our gender ID to reflect our true inner spirit, and we now present as women, and demand to be accepted as women on that basis - the 'because we say so' basis.

There is even a trend for TiM's to have beards etc, on the basis that they are women because they say so, they are not obliged to change their bodily appearance to prove it - 'we don't owe you femininity'.

I think DrU is unusual these days in claiming that he has somehow become biologically female.
The fact that he is a doctor, and is prepared to stand up in court and make such an extraordinary and easily refuted statement is incredible
The fact that a judge still finds him a credible and reliable witness is also incredible, and worrying.

I've noted before that all the witnesses the judge found 'credible and reliable' are people who went along with 'Beth's' proclaimed ID.

Seethlaw · 10/12/2025 11:02

Christinapple · 10/12/2025 09:44

I've been to various European cities. Plenty of unisex bathrooms there. In Paris the only same sax bathrooms I saw were at the CDG airport and a shopping centre. AFAIK people there go about their business without any complaints.

That's blatantly false. The immense majority of places I've been to throughout my life in France have been single sex. It's unisex bathrooms which are very much the exception.

Greyskybluesky · 10/12/2025 11:20

Christinapple · 10/12/2025 09:44

I've been to various European cities. Plenty of unisex bathrooms there. In Paris the only same sax bathrooms I saw were at the CDG airport and a shopping centre. AFAIK people there go about their business without any complaints.

"AFAIK" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

You have absolutely no idea what people in other countries think about them.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 10/12/2025 11:23

prh47bridge · 09/12/2025 16:32

Since the law protects transgender individuals and prevents discrimination against them, it would be quite wrong of the court to find that someone is not credible simply because they claim to be female when they are biologically male. Upton's apparent tampering with the phone evidence and the fact that other witnesses to one of the alleged clinical incidents disagreed with him was a much greater threat to his credibility than his claim to be a woman.

He claimed to be a biological woman. Considering how much medical training is based on scientific understanding, this was a quite extraordinary claim, which to a lay person does seem to bring into question his credibility. He appeared to be using sophistry to try to deflect attention from his behaviour.

DonicaLewinsky · 10/12/2025 11:23

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 09:41

To save anyone else, neither does "create" in anything like the "quote", so it isn't, for example, that there's a mis-spelling of "hierarchy" in the judgement that stops the quotation being found. (I expect Maya knows it by heart anyway!)

That's got to be an AI invention surely?

NebulousSupportPostcard · 10/12/2025 11:28

The fact that the J has used doctored quotes must surel6 be a detriment to everyone involved who will have to suffer the likelihood of an appeal?

I can't see how a competent judge could think that to be in Upton's interests, even if he were biased towards Upton? It seems to be more an extraordinary level of incompetence?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/12/2025 11:28

DonicaLewinsky · 10/12/2025 11:23

That's got to be an AI invention surely?

I couldn't believe the judge would make something up so was giving him the benefit of the doubt and figured he had got mixed up between Forstater and FWS - it is 300 pages long after all.

But it doesn't seem to be in the FWS judgement either Hmm The phrase does seem oddly familiar though, I'm not sure if it's just because it is used in here a lot?

Tiddler1976 · 10/12/2025 11:30

Well, the Diversity colleague in my health board is always using that quote towards me whenever I ask questions 😂 Straight out the Isla Bumba playbook.

I wonder if he asked ChatGPT if he thought both Isla and the Doctor were reliable witnesses as I don't think anyone who watched the hearing would think so.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 11:32

The made-up quote from Maya's judgement is at least factually true - the EA2010 doesn't create a hierarchy of protected characteristics - unlike the doctored quote from the FWS judgement!

Press conference: I've lost the tab but I think it was in the Telegraph article that SP's legal team are holding a press conference on Thursday. Might not be Naomi in person, I don't know. Does someone else have precisely what it says?

ETA yes, a non-hallucinated quote: "The nurse and her legal team are expected to disclose their next steps at a press conference on Thursday."
www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/a29ca753e6c296f8

MyAmpleSheep · 10/12/2025 11:39

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/12/2025 11:28

I couldn't believe the judge would make something up so was giving him the benefit of the doubt and figured he had got mixed up between Forstater and FWS - it is 300 pages long after all.

But it doesn't seem to be in the FWS judgement either Hmm The phrase does seem oddly familiar though, I'm not sure if it's just because it is used in here a lot?

I agree it’s eerily familiar.

It sounds like a quote from Michael Foran, actually, or someone making the point that gender reassignment doesn’t override sex as a protected characteristic.

ProfessorBinturong · 10/12/2025 11:39

Alpacajigsaw · 09/12/2025 20:01

Which, I suppose is where Kemp pressing the point that Upton gave evidence before FWS comes in

Completely irrelevant because he gave evidence after Haldane, and had no GRC. The FWS judgement didn't affect his position.

thelongestwayhome · 10/12/2025 11:39

There appears to be another phantom quote in the judgement. Taken from the Lee v. Ashers Bakers case. Rushing out the door. Will link later.

Very very strange situation .

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/12/2025 11:44

Christinapple · 10/12/2025 09:44

I've been to various European cities. Plenty of unisex bathrooms there. In Paris the only same sax bathrooms I saw were at the CDG airport and a shopping centre. AFAIK people there go about their business without any complaints.

My son lives in Barcelona, and I made a point of noticing toilet arrangements during my latest visit in October. I didn't come across one unisex facility across a range of different types of venue. Coffee shops, restaurants, museums.....all had obviously designated single sex facilities. As did the airport.

Can't say I've ever come acroos a unisex facility in Italy, either.

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