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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

1000 replies

nauticant · 09/12/2025 07:55

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

OP posts:
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64
peakedtraybake · 10/12/2025 07:49

Re the SCJ misquote, I thought, no way, this has to be a misunderstanding and the misquote must makes sense (erm. In the broadest possible meaning of the term) in context.

Eg, thought I, perhaps it's part of, "Look, the workforce regs aren't definitive because who knew what a woman was in 1992 and even the SC agreed it's possible for trans women to use as facilities without being all 'I'm a LAYDEEEE!! 👄💋' about it and being a massive pain in the arse, so we're gonna have to make some rules here about lipstick and high pitched voices."

But no. With my most generous glasses on, I cannot construe this as anything other than a deliberate misquote. Can any of our resident lawyers??!

And (IANAL) over paras 806-7, it jumps on the SC use of the word "reasonableness" to suggest that "reasonableness" indicates some test beyond sex. I had thought that here the SC is simply discussing at that point situations in which providing a single sex service is a reasonable means of achieving a legitimate end. Please, please can any of our residents lawyers comment on this?!

Skyellaskerry · 10/12/2025 07:56

@Shortshriftandlethal I found the Wings Across Scotland article brilliant that a couple of PPs linked as it laid out straight comparisons with the SC.

I’m curious - In judge land, other than the couple of lay people, does anyone review judgements before issue. Similar to business practice where review of work before issue is basic good practice for obvious reasons.

FigRollsAlly · 10/12/2025 07:58

TheAutumnCrow · 10/12/2025 02:57

The Telegraph published this last night, that I’ve only just seen (post-flu-based insomnia here).

The Women’s Rights Network (WRN) have put together a report based on figures obtained from FoI requests for Police data. It makes for grim reading.

Sexual predators target girls in mixed changing rooms
**
Dozens of rapes and sexual assaults committed in sports centres, police figures reveal

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/12/09/sexual-predators-target-girls-mixed-changing-rooms-wrn-uk/

Archive (free) link: archive.ph/uHFKs

My worry is that biased judges are justifying ignoring such data because it’s not about trans identified men offending against female colleagues. They are wriggling out of it by saying it’s different when employees are vetted, or that the data only refers to general users of public places like swimming pools, shop changing rooms etc.

Skyellaskerry · 10/12/2025 08:05

I am worried that with the inordinate delay in publishing the SC guidelines (that weak employers are clinging on to as an excuse for still not changing their current effectively self ID policies), these very same employers and whoever they use to guide them, will drag their heels even further as they will refer to the Peggie judgement and claim further lack of clarity. Presumably they must ONLY apply the SC which is law, no matter what?

Arran2024 · 10/12/2025 08:40

Skyellaskerry · 10/12/2025 08:05

I am worried that with the inordinate delay in publishing the SC guidelines (that weak employers are clinging on to as an excuse for still not changing their current effectively self ID policies), these very same employers and whoever they use to guide them, will drag their heels even further as they will refer to the Peggie judgement and claim further lack of clarity. Presumably they must ONLY apply the SC which is law, no matter what?

The Good Law Project has already been tweeting that orgs don't have to exclude trans women from changing rooms.

peakedtraybake · 10/12/2025 08:46

Arran2024 · 10/12/2025 08:40

The Good Law Project has already been tweeting that orgs don't have to exclude trans women from changing rooms.

They need a new name.
Do they at least nuance it by saying workplace CRs? (Not that I think that the correct, either - but the SC was entirely clear on SS CRs as service provision.)

DrBlackbird · 10/12/2025 08:50

Skyellaskerry · 10/12/2025 08:05

I am worried that with the inordinate delay in publishing the SC guidelines (that weak employers are clinging on to as an excuse for still not changing their current effectively self ID policies), these very same employers and whoever they use to guide them, will drag their heels even further as they will refer to the Peggie judgement and claim further lack of clarity. Presumably they must ONLY apply the SC which is law, no matter what?

Same.

It’s surely one reason why Labour are delaying the final guidance issues under Baroness Falkner. So they can undermine or weaken the SC ruling. It might have given the judge slightly more pause for thought.

prh47bridge · 10/12/2025 08:57

DrBlackbird · 10/12/2025 08:50

Same.

It’s surely one reason why Labour are delaying the final guidance issues under Baroness Falkner. So they can undermine or weaken the SC ruling. It might have given the judge slightly more pause for thought.

From the way they are going about this, I think either the government thinks the SC got it wrong and wants to undermine them, or they are frightened that implementing SC will go down badly with their backbenchers and activists. It looks to me like they are trying to kick this into the long grass. It is reported that they have asked the EHRC to produce an impact assessment as if this guidance changed the law, which is entirely inappropriate. But there is clearly a lot of kick back against the EHRC guidance, with warnings that the changes will damage the mental health of trans individuals and various organisations claiming that the proposed new guidance is unlawful.

The problem is that this continues to enable captured judges at the lower levels of the court system to produce judgements like this one that attempt to reverse FWS. I really hope SP is up for appealing this.

CraftyRedBird · 10/12/2025 08:59

peakedtraybake · 10/12/2025 08:46

They need a new name.
Do they at least nuance it by saying workplace CRs? (Not that I think that the correct, either - but the SC was entirely clear on SS CRs as service provision.)

Unfortunately for employers the legal position is about as clear as mud right now.

Ultimately the problem is political.

I'm concerned that many will just convert to single occupancy cubicles to avoid litigation.

Which as well as being expensive, as has been said, introduces risks.

OhBuggerandArse · 10/12/2025 09:13

Maya Forstater on the 'quote' that doesn't actually appear in her judgement. Raising issues about the potential use of ChatGPT - that would certainly explain some of the length and rambliness, as well as the possible AI hallucinations. https://x.com/MForstater/status/1998680325052850388?s=20

Maya Forstater (@MForstater) on X

One of the many things wrong with the Sandie Peggie judgment. This "quote" from my judgment doesn't come from my judgment. It is completely made up. 🤯

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1998680325052850388?s=20

BunfightBetty · 10/12/2025 09:16

NotBadConsidering · 10/12/2025 07:08

Yes. And I know they genuinely believe woman is gender identity. But I don’t believe they truly believe they are the same as other women, deep down. If Boko Haram came calling they wouldn’t be women or girls. They know they can’t get pregnant. They pretend, and pretend, and pretend, and lie about what they believe repeatedly, but they know. They really know. They just never ever say it out loud. And it’s why their arguments are circular and illogical. Because they know the only way out of the circle is to admit the truth.

Absolutely.

The Boko Haram Test - or Taliban Test - would only ever result in one outcome.

Kucinghitam · 10/12/2025 09:17

OhBuggerandArse · 10/12/2025 09:13

Maya Forstater on the 'quote' that doesn't actually appear in her judgement. Raising issues about the potential use of ChatGPT - that would certainly explain some of the length and rambliness, as well as the possible AI hallucinations. https://x.com/MForstater/status/1998680325052850388?s=20

OMG (again!). So looks like TRA Judge Kemp fed this case into ChatGPT and said "Find a way to crush Peggie into the dirt and exonerate NHS Fife and Upton" and the big delay was actually because even ChatGPT couldn't hallucinate NHS Fife off the hook?

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/12/2025 09:19

Skyellaskerry · 10/12/2025 08:05

I am worried that with the inordinate delay in publishing the SC guidelines (that weak employers are clinging on to as an excuse for still not changing their current effectively self ID policies), these very same employers and whoever they use to guide them, will drag their heels even further as they will refer to the Peggie judgement and claim further lack of clarity. Presumably they must ONLY apply the SC which is law, no matter what?

The SC judgment and ruling is binding on all lower courts.

NotanotherWeek · 10/12/2025 09:19

Kucinghitam · 10/12/2025 09:17

OMG (again!). So looks like TRA Judge Kemp fed this case into ChatGPT and said "Find a way to crush Peggie into the dirt and exonerate NHS Fife and Upton" and the big delay was actually because even ChatGPT couldn't hallucinate NHS Fife off the hook?

I’m sure he’s flavour of the month with Swinney & Co, but why must it be like to be exposed like this?

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 09:20

(I've only just made this connection and am having trouble keeping up, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have already said, but:)[ETA omg, and I typed this before I knew about the completely fabricated quotation from Maya's judgement.]

The fact that Sandy Kemp seems to think it's ok for him to doctor a quotation from the Supreme Court doesn't half shed light on how he seems to think it's ok for Upton to have doctored his "contemporaneous" notes, don't you think?

Serious question: what goes through these men's minds, in the interval between it occurring to them that it would serve their purposes to do something like this, and them actually doing it? Full disclosure, there have been occasions when I've wished something said something else instead of what it does say, and have wondered what would happen if I just proceeded as though it did...but then, quite apart from the morality issues which I do care about, I immediately assume that if I care about it enough to contemplate doing such manipulation, very likely someone else also cares enough to check, and that being caught out would be many times worse than dealing with reality. Why don't they think like that? Do they just assume, on the basis of experience, that they can get away with it? I suppose so.

I suppose NC's press conference tomorrow is unlikely to go into such details, but I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when they noticed this point.

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/12/2025 09:21

CraftyRedBird · 10/12/2025 08:59

Unfortunately for employers the legal position is about as clear as mud right now.

Ultimately the problem is political.

I'm concerned that many will just convert to single occupancy cubicles to avoid litigation.

Which as well as being expensive, as has been said, introduces risks.

Most places are still single sex ( even in Europe where we've been told that unisex is "the norm") and most places will retain this, I'm sure. If desired a single occupancy unisex facility could be added at no huge extra cost.

BunfightBetty · 10/12/2025 09:24

OhBuggerandArse · 10/12/2025 09:13

Maya Forstater on the 'quote' that doesn't actually appear in her judgement. Raising issues about the potential use of ChatGPT - that would certainly explain some of the length and rambliness, as well as the possible AI hallucinations. https://x.com/MForstater/status/1998680325052850388?s=20

This is wild. Looks like he's used ChatGPT and then not even fact or sense checked its output?

spannasaurus · 10/12/2025 09:25

OhBuggerandArse · 10/12/2025 09:13

Maya Forstater on the 'quote' that doesn't actually appear in her judgement. Raising issues about the potential use of ChatGPT - that would certainly explain some of the length and rambliness, as well as the possible AI hallucinations. https://x.com/MForstater/status/1998680325052850388?s=20

Could this be a disciplinary matter for the judge? Making up ficticious quotes must break some rule

FragilityOfCups · 10/12/2025 09:26

OhBuggerandArse · 10/12/2025 09:13

Maya Forstater on the 'quote' that doesn't actually appear in her judgement. Raising issues about the potential use of ChatGPT - that would certainly explain some of the length and rambliness, as well as the possible AI hallucinations. https://x.com/MForstater/status/1998680325052850388?s=20

I actually think I'd prefer it if this one judge was biased, incoherent and bad at making a solid argument than AI being used, unchecked, to routinely produce judgments.

Absolutely depressing state of affairs if so.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 09:27

Has anyone checked his other recent judgements yet?

ProfessorBinturong · 10/12/2025 09:28

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 09/12/2025 13:01

Anya Palmer
@ anyabike

Still making my way through the Peggie judgment, just found the novel conclusion in paras.1221-1222 that making an allegation which the tribunal clearly accepts amounts to an allegation of harassment was not however a protected act because it was not made to a manager... [she links to image 1]

The tribunal goes on to note that it could not find any authority, nor was it referred to any, on the question of to whom a complaint should be made. "Accordingly" it concludes the claimant has failed to prove that she did a protected act. [she links to image 2]

But the reason there is nothing on "the question of to whom a complaint should be made" is that section 27(2)(d), on which Sandie Peggie relied, does not say require the complaint to be made to any particular person or class of person. So that issue does not arise. [she links to image 3]

There isn't even a requirement that the allegation be made to someone who works for her employer, let alone that she make it to a manager. The only question is did she allege something that would amount to a breach of the Equality Act. She could make it to her hairdresser.

If someone overheard and it got back to her employer and they then subjected her to detriment because she made that allegation, it is no defence to say "but she didn't make it to one of our staff!" This is a really basic error, from a very experienced judge. Very odd.

Confusing 'allegation' and 'complaint' is a major error of comprehension.

Kucinghitam · 10/12/2025 09:30

NotanotherWeek · 10/12/2025 09:19

I’m sure he’s flavour of the month with Swinney & Co, but why must it be like to be exposed like this?

As we have seen repeatedly even on MN (most recently by the sure-to-reappear-with-another-namechange young canine), the Righteous believe that any means is worth it for the Greater Good*, and indeed their self-sacrifice in sullying themselves would probably be celebrated by their fellow TRSOHers. I rather suspect that the more blatant the lies and fakery, the greater the Duper's Delight thrill of Righteousness is. Basically, they know they're repeatedly lying, they know we know, and they know that all our attempts to spread the word of their mendacity will be buried by their friends who have captured every level of the media and most institutions. "Halo"-polishingly thrilling.

*I first encountered this phenomenon in the last century, when young earth creationists would use the exact same "lying for Jesus" and "Gish Gallop" tactics to fight against the reality of evolution by natural selection. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, eh?

peakedtraybake · 10/12/2025 09:33

I just searched the Forstater EAT judgment and the word "hierarchy" doesn't seem to be in there at all. This is extraordinary.

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