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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

1000 replies

nauticant · 09/12/2025 07:55

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

OP posts:
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64
usernameinserthere · 10/12/2025 00:56

Upton is an ass.

For my sins I have read over 70 tribunal judgments this week.

They are really boring. Being an Employment Judge is not a fun job. Most cases are for small sums. Many claimants are unrepresented or don't turn up.

For those that do turn up - there usually some poor work procedure but little nefariousness or complexity. They are just looking people to be reasonable, have their documents in order and keep it straightforward.

In this Judge’s case I’d say 95% of cases were dismissed or claim was less than £5k.

Most cases take a few days.

These Judges literally spend their days settling individual cases.

They cannot grasp wider issues. They can only stick to their lane. They literally are too scared to do anything meaningful.

Both Judgments were just people twisting narratives to allow them to show some balance but not upset most people.

In Kelly of course the toilets are single sex but handwashing is mixed sex?? Phew that allows people to pee in peace and a bit of communal handwashing never hurt anyone.

In Peggie it’s neither illegal or legal to be a trans identifying man in a women’s changing room. You can stay unless someone says they’re not welcome and then something needs to happen. Whatever that is I don’t know but something.

They are trying to step through these complex situations without stepping on a landmine.

They fail to understand their job is to remove the land mines.

usernameinserthere · 10/12/2025 01:04

CraftyRedBird · 10/12/2025 00:52

"Working through the details" = lawyers are mulling, don't rule out an appeal yet!

NHS Fife could well be the first one to whack the appeal dong.

Appeal then unappeal then re appeal. Then realise you published your draft on your website. Delete it. Re-upload it.

Post it in the internal mail and cross your fingers.

MyAmpleSheep · 10/12/2025 01:10

Both Judgments were just people twisting narratives to allow them to show some balance but not upset most people.

I agree. That it took 300+ pages in one case shows how much twisting was needed.

CraftyRedBird · 10/12/2025 01:18

usernameinserthere · 10/12/2025 01:04

Appeal then unappeal then re appeal. Then realise you published your draft on your website. Delete it. Re-upload it.

Post it in the internal mail and cross your fingers.

😂😂😂

Okay NHS Fife might decide to appeal...

But rather than submit the required paperwork on time they'll probably send rude comments about everyone involved to a random mum of a patient.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 10/12/2025 01:34

CraftyRedBird · 10/12/2025 01:18

😂😂😂

Okay NHS Fife might decide to appeal...

But rather than submit the required paperwork on time they'll probably send rude comments about everyone involved to a random mum of a patient.

Edited

Would love them to accidentally send the Media Training notes prepared for the session with the Board Members. With bonus feedback forms intended for the PR guru.

UtopiaPlanitia · 10/12/2025 02:30

SionnachRuadh · 09/12/2025 16:44

Jaipurs, I do enjoy a good Wings rant. Especially when thon wee hallion Ross Greer wanders intil the crossfire.

Thanks to Shauny Boy on the YouTubes, as soon as I hear the words, 'Ross Greer", I think "Meep, meep!" 😂

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/12/2025 02:35

CohensDiamondTeeth · 10/12/2025 00:07

I understand where you're coming from I think, but I also think framing it as people wanting to "punish" DU is a bit much.

It's against the law for him to enter female single sex spaces (although thanks to Judge Kemp the waters are re-muddied), it's against the law to commit perjury while under oath in court, and it's against the law to sexually assault a woman (female patient who has requested single sex intimate care). These are all things that DU has done, or has admitted he would do.

The tribunal panel and judge can't or won't do anything about that, and women are let down by the system all over again. It's not even subtle it's allowing a flagrant lie to stand and calling the liar credible, and it's failing to protect women from someone who had the means, opportunity and will to sexually assault them.

I think it's totally understandable that people are dismayed at this and want to see something done. I don't think this is a desire to "punish" DU, I think it's a desire for those in authority to hold him to account, instead of enabling the continued abuse of women via men like him.

Fully agree.

TheAutumnCrow · 10/12/2025 02:57

FigRollsAlly · 09/12/2025 12:05

The Leonardo judge seemed to think that women in that particular workplace would be safe from their male colleagues because everyone would have been vetted. EJ Kemp seems to be saying that there are no stats on the dangers of men in workplace single sex spaces so even if he had read the hyperlinks would they have contained such data?

The Telegraph published this last night, that I’ve only just seen (post-flu-based insomnia here).

The Women’s Rights Network (WRN) have put together a report based on figures obtained from FoI requests for Police data. It makes for grim reading.

Sexual predators target girls in mixed changing rooms
**
Dozens of rapes and sexual assaults committed in sports centres, police figures reveal

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/12/09/sexual-predators-target-girls-mixed-changing-rooms-wrn-uk/

Archive (free) link: archive.ph/uHFKs

Access Restricted

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/12/09/sexual-predators-target-girls-mixed-changing-rooms-wrn-uk

MyAmpleSheep · 10/12/2025 04:32

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/12/2025 16:38

Wings has done a good article:
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-valley-of-the-dolls/

He points out that the judge misquotes FWS by leaving out the "trans" from "transwoman"...

I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out but leaving out the word "trans" is not the biggest sin here - that falls to be leaving out the word "although":

The original reads "Although such trans women may in practice choose to use female facilities..."

This has been edited to become "...such women may in practice choose to use female facilities..."

The word "although" means "despite" or "not withstanding", ie we disagree with what follows. The misquoted version makes it sound permissive, which is the exact opposite.

That's enough to damn the judgement, even at first sight.

TheAutumnCrow · 10/12/2025 04:46

MyAmpleSheep · 10/12/2025 04:32

I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out but leaving out the word "trans" is not the biggest sin here - that falls to be leaving out the word "although":

The original reads "Although such trans women may in practice choose to use female facilities..."

This has been edited to become "...such women may in practice choose to use female facilities..."

The word "although" means "despite" or "not withstanding", ie we disagree with what follows. The misquoted version makes it sound permissive, which is the exact opposite.

That's enough to damn the judgement, even at first sight.

Yes, it’s misleading. In fact it is the falsification of the wording of the FWS Supreme Court ruling.

It is egregious.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/12/2025 05:15

The dishonesty of that omission is appalling.

Igneococcus · 10/12/2025 05:44

Can Judge Kemp be investigated for this, and who would be the authority to do this?

deadpan · 10/12/2025 06:12

@NebulousSupportPostcard So basically they say that sandies instigation of the complaint didn't mention his phone records, he offered his phone readily and *it's suspected that his phone evidence is perjurous - but it didn't fit the structure of the tribunal to pursue that. Seems ridiculous that a tribunal can't change tack if they suspect something as serious as that. But also it's a hell of a jump from we suspect Upton has doctored evidence. to we think Upton is a more reliable witness than the complainant

Coffeebeforework · 10/12/2025 06:15

Namechange2211 · 09/12/2025 19:41

I am so sick of all this. I follow all these ETs avidly like many of us. I had some fears that this would happen. It’s all so obvious that these highly educated judges and the rest of them must be pretending to not understand. I have read all the theories here like maybe the EJ put out shameful judgement full of idiocies to force an appeal for higher court to make decisions. That is partly true but I think the sheer overwhelming aggression showed by the gender ideologists and trans activists, and the threats of violence to anyone standing up to them means that even big powerful male judges are too afraid.

Totally agree.

AuntieMsDamsonCrumble · 10/12/2025 06:43

The thing that really depresses me is that the judge clearly thinks that Upton's performative "femininity", based on looks, hairstyle and soft voice, is how women should behave and which he finds "credible".

He just doesn't get that it is actually Sandie, who must have seen literally everything life can throw at you in her job and has had to develop the strength to cope with it all, who is actually the embodiment of a real, modern-day, straight-talking and brave woman, whom anyone on these threads would instantly recognise.

This is sheer misogyny.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/12/2025 06:44

YY @AuntieMsDamsonCrumble

Needapadlockonmyfridge · 10/12/2025 06:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/12/2025 06:44

YY @AuntieMsDamsonCrumble

Or XX, even 😀

DrProfessorYaffle · 10/12/2025 07:03

Forgive me for c&p my post from the last thread as it got lost there but I think some of the findings from this are so relevant to the Peggie case.

My mind is blown that Trusts are spending loads of money finding that they should have listened to women, particularly those with lower statues and less power. And then this sort of nonsense of a judgement comes out from an ET.

DrProfessorYaffle · 05/12/2025 23:53
Trigger warning- the details in this article are distressing
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/deviant-devon-doctor-allowed-back-9656939.amp
I came across this on/through the Victor Chan thread discussion and some of it is really relevant to SP (and Darlington):
But staff "felt that the culture at the time inhibited any thought of them raising a concern about this."
Consultants were split about whether the doctor should return to work. Medical managers, who did not have the full context, prioritised the doctor's mental health and thought there might be a "witch hunt" against him.
it said the Trust had to improve its culture of speaking up and sexual safety. "Many people who took part in this review describe feeling unable to speak up, or if they did speak up, an experience of not being heard, their concerns not being valued, or being dismissed, not understood," it concluded.
It adds. "The people who experience this were those attempting to raise concerns with people who were perceived as more senior to them, higher up in the hierarchy, importantly, people felt that their voices were much less likely to be heard if they were female and this was not always dependent on position."

We know this stuff. And who it facilitates and enables. And then look at Kemp's judgement.

Ffs

NotBadConsidering · 10/12/2025 07:08

Arran2024 · 09/12/2025 23:41

They think that being a woman is not rooted in biology but rather in gender identity feelings so to them they ARE women. And plenty of people are happy to support this notion. See Helen Webberley for instance.

Yes. And I know they genuinely believe woman is gender identity. But I don’t believe they truly believe they are the same as other women, deep down. If Boko Haram came calling they wouldn’t be women or girls. They know they can’t get pregnant. They pretend, and pretend, and pretend, and lie about what they believe repeatedly, but they know. They really know. They just never ever say it out loud. And it’s why their arguments are circular and illogical. Because they know the only way out of the circle is to admit the truth.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/12/2025 07:11

NotBadConsidering · 10/12/2025 07:08

Yes. And I know they genuinely believe woman is gender identity. But I don’t believe they truly believe they are the same as other women, deep down. If Boko Haram came calling they wouldn’t be women or girls. They know they can’t get pregnant. They pretend, and pretend, and pretend, and lie about what they believe repeatedly, but they know. They really know. They just never ever say it out loud. And it’s why their arguments are circular and illogical. Because they know the only way out of the circle is to admit the truth.

I agree.

Skyellaskerry · 10/12/2025 07:16

CohensDiamondTeeth · 10/12/2025 00:40

There's also this article. Neil Gray's response is wishy washy "It's all so very complex, we're working through it". Aye right, no rush Neil🙄

Tories demand sacking of NHS Fife chief executive after Sandie Peggie tribunal | The Standard

I’m not a Tory but my god am I thankful for Tess White, Pam Gosal, and others who have been relentless and strong in the Scottish Parliament.

NaomiCunninghamHasHadHerWeetabixAgain · 10/12/2025 07:40

So that’s 3 First Ministers, an NHS CEO and Board, Consultants and Senior Medical Team, Scottish Gov and NHS legal teams, (some) nursing colleagues, Trade Union, Equality Lead and now a Tribunal Judge and Panel all willing to set their own careers and reputations on fire to protect the right for a man to be in a woman’s changing room.

The most vulnerable minority don’t seem that vulnerable to me. Thank heavens for those fighting against this insanity

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/12/2025 07:41

Do we think the overly long judgement was an attempt to obfuscate and make it appear that the case, and all of its aspects, had been given thorough thought? Try ty to make it comparable with the SC ruling? Maybe they thought nobody would actually read through it and highlight its many inconsistencies and down-right mistakes?

EmmyFr · 10/12/2025 07:42

MyAmpleSheep · 10/12/2025 04:32

I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out but leaving out the word "trans" is not the biggest sin here - that falls to be leaving out the word "although":

The original reads "Although such trans women may in practice choose to use female facilities..."

This has been edited to become "...such women may in practice choose to use female facilities..."

The word "although" means "despite" or "not withstanding", ie we disagree with what follows. The misquoted version makes it sound permissive, which is the exact opposite.

That's enough to damn the judgement, even at first sight.

Hard agree. And as Wings has rightly pointed out, leaving out trans is sin #3 as sin #2 is leaving out the fact that the whole reasoning applies only to a subset of TIM ie those with a GRC. Which Upton does NOT have in the first place. He has the PC of gender reassignment but not a woman gender, whichever shit that may be.

Still sorry that Naomi C did not push Pete further. (As in, OK you acknowledge Pete shouldn't be there. If he calls himself Petra ? If he shaves? If he pouts? Where is the actual line, Ms Bumba bonita ?)

EmmyFr · 10/12/2025 07:43

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/12/2025 07:41

Do we think the overly long judgement was an attempt to obfuscate and make it appear that the case, and all of its aspects, had been given thorough thought? Try ty to make it comparable with the SC ruling? Maybe they thought nobody would actually read through it and highlight its many inconsistencies and down-right mistakes?

Edited

😂 Could be.

"And how is that working out for you, Judge Kemp? "

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