NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

[nauticant]

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

They grab at any victory they have to control the narrative, even one that may change.

Agree.

I'm afraid I gave Big Sond the benefit of the doubt, all those times he let JR waffle on, and then let JR object at nearly everything NC asked.

I thought he was really giving JR an opportunity to embarrass the ideology all on her own, and appear impartial as not to give DU or NHS Fife reason to think he has acted in a way that could grant them an appeal, but I now think he was willfully ignorant to the issues women face.

I am not happy with the statement made in the judgement that because only SP objected, there isn't really an issue to be had.

Really hope SP and team pursue an appeal. I would love this to go to a higher court so we can have some strong caselaw.

I'm happy that the tribunal found in favour of Sandie over NHS Fife, but I'm quite depressed and angry at the rest. I do appreciate that this creates an opportunity via appeal to set legal precedent, but still, it feels like the world has gone totally insane! Theo Upton, credible?! More credible than SP because of his dodgy, edited after the fact, notes?! Fuck sakes!

And, on top of everything else I just want to scream he's a man! A bloody man! He should not have been in there in the first place, and it shouldn't have to take a complaint to get him out! And ffs NHSF put Sandi through the wringer for doing just that!

I don't agree with the tribunal's judgement on Upton's credibility. I just ctrl+f'd my way through the judgement to look at the relevant parts to see what they said.

I suspect a particularly large problem for the tribunal was that the implication of the phone expert testimony was that Upton may have committed perjury. But because no application was made to re-examine him, the tribunal would have had to reach quite far to agree with that conclusion. (Extract of judgement attached pending review)

I think they went too far in the opposite direction in making excuses for Upton but here we are.

I think there are some people out there who do believe that it's possible to have changed sex. The ideology has been that insidious, and there are a number of vulnerable or credulous people caught up in it.

I do not for one second believe that Theodore Upton is one of the true believers. IMO he comes across as a misogynistic, smug, thinks he's more intelligent than everyone, plays word games, cry bully.

I wonder if the GMC will accept complaints about him now the tribunal is over, I found it absolutely chilling that he blithely asserted in court, in front of the whole world, that he would sexually assault a female patient who had requested same sex intimate care! I find him a genuinely frightening man.

I know what you’re saying. But I don’t think they truly, truly believe it. Drop a trans identifying male into Kabul and they would instantly drop the charade. It’s all performative to try and make gains.

Being discussed on Scotcast on TV now (BBC Scotland)

But this really isn’t over yet as there is a statuary time for appeal. The Scottish Parliament is determined to drag its heels in addressing the SSS and who can legitimately use them (despite the FWS ruling) during the appeal window. It might be a long two weeks of contemplation for DU about his return to the SSS of his choice. If he were able to return to old haunts surely it would be permanently open to challenge and ‘pause’ while an investigation without harassment of any party took place? Form an orderly queue… and not all at once.
Honing points from this tribunal, K v L and the Darlington Nurses makes me hopeful for DN’s and future outcomes. SP and MK have been subjected to appalling treatment by their employers and the legal process but paved the way for the DN’s case; true acts of bravery by all. Now the ideology has been exposed for what it is third time lucky?

Transactivists made a beeline for the young - schools, children in care of the data, universities, social care etc intimidating and bullying everyone into chanting the mantra TWAW, sex change is great for children etc.

So we have a generation of young people who've been gaslit by all their trusted adults into accepting that sex change is possible. Even though every bit of evidence shows it's untrue. Repeat the intimidation in the workplace, (just look at the state of the NHS with this) and most people went along with it - even if it's to ensure they keep their job and are physically safe.

When you're young if you're told a lie by all the adults surrounding you and it's supported by the media (thank you BBC) , challenging that when you'll be bullied for speaking the truth doesn't happen. Which is why there's such a mountain to climb at the moment.

Add to that so many mediocre politicians leading the bullying in government at the moment, even those charged with leadership are quivering in fear and refusing to implement the law and important guidance that will keep women and children safe.

Sorry to quote myself but actually I wonder even about the "true believers".

I've read here that some trans identified men who have suffered with dementia in later years have been very distressed and confused by their feminised bodies.

So it makes me wonder if true belief that one has actually changed sex is more a fervent wish, or something learned by rote from the TRA handbook and a conscious shutting off of any internal questioning of the meaning of that phrase, both repeated until it almost becomes true for the individual.

Regardless, I still don't think Upton is one of the "true believers".

Does anyone know what the mechanism is for clarifying this (apart from an appeal, I mean)?

I don't know. It's really something quite scary to me that a doctor can tell such a massive, and clearly disprovable, lie such as what sex they are in court, as well as admit to what boils down to an intent to commit sexual assault, and be called credible by the judge.

Unfortunately I cannot remember the details now but I have vague memories of Adrian Harrop and GMC complaints? Or was it BMA? Was there anything relevant to this? I find Upton incredibly disturbing, would refuse to be treated by him, and believe his own words demonstrate his lack of fitness to practice. Particularly infuriated his false/fabricated patient harm risk bits were glossed over.

Doctors are suprisingly thick - but that would be bigly thick even for Upton.

They think that being a woman is not rooted in biology but rather in gender identity feelings so to them they ARE women. And plenty of people are happy to support this notion. See Helen Webberley for instance.

I'm not sure if this has been shared already, I missed most of the last thread.

Michael Foran in the Telegraph.

Dr Michael Foran, an Oxford University professor who specialises in gender law, noted that April’s Supreme Court ruling found that single-sex services should be “based on biological sex”.
However, he said Monday's tribunal ruling had created other criteria, such as a trans woman’s hairstyle, clothing and what surgery they had had.
He said employment judge Alexander Kemp had created a “new test” that was not “compatible with the thrust” of the Supreme Court ruling.
Dr Foran said Mr Kemp had also appeared to formulate a second new test, that it was lawful for a trans woman to enter a female-only area if no one complained.
But the academic said that “we shouldn’t be inferring from the fact that nobody complained that therefore there isn’t unlawful conduct”.
He said Ms Peggie would have “strong grounds” for a successful appeal.

Sandie Peggie tribunal ‘incompatible with Supreme Court trans ruling’

I agree; I do think it's an issue of credibility, and it's disappointing the Judge didn't. But - he didn't. I think there's limited mileage in trying to "punish" DU, suggestions that he should be prosecuted for perjury, etc. I certainly don't mean we should not comment or draw conclusions from what he said.

It’s terrifying.

This has shaken my faith in justice to the core.

I understand where you're coming from I think, but I also think framing it as people wanting to "punish" DU is a bit much.

It's against the law for him to enter female single sex spaces (although thanks to Judge Kemp the waters are re-muddied), it's against the law to commit perjury while under oath in court, and it's against the law to sexually assault a woman (female patient who has requested single sex intimate care). These are all things that DU has done, or has admitted he would do.

The tribunal panel and judge can't or won't do anything about that, and women are let down by the system all over again. It's not even subtle it's allowing a flagrant lie to stand and calling the liar credible, and it's failing to protect women from someone who had the means, opportunity and will to sexually assault them.

I think it's totally understandable that people are dismayed at this and want to see something done. I don't think this is a desire to "punish" DU, I think it's a desire for those in authority to hold him to account, instead of enabling the continued abuse of women via men like him.

Same. And adults, apparently SANE adults are swallowing this to the core. How did we get here?!

Currently watching Scotcast and the three men are discussing the Peggie case. All men. Dancing politely around the issues. Ask us! The women whom it affects. To be fair I’ve never watched any other episodes but it’s making me so angry that we’re in this situation.

Men can’t identify as another age or another race as that would be offensive, but the opposite sex is fair game by merely putting on a costume and we’re now fucked?! My (male) partner doesn’t get why I get so angry. Yes mate, because you are male so don’t appear to get nor understand these shit times we find ourselves in, in 2025.

Aargh. As you were.

I agree.

And the damage is still done to everyone who supported Upton, and that necessarily changes the world he operates in. It's hard to think of anyone who has come out if this tribunal unscathed and, regardless of the tribunal's findings, everyone around him will be very conscious of the discrepancies between what they accepted at the time, and what they now know. Who will ever really trust him again at work? And for how long will the prospect of an appeal hang over his head?

If the process is the punishment, then Upton probably has some very sad times ahead of him :/

There's also this article. Neil Gray's response is wishy washy "It's all so very complex, we're working through it". Aye right, no rush Neil🙄

Tories demand sacking of NHS Fife chief executive after Sandie Peggie tribunal | The Standard

No one is proof reading - there are 42 days to appeal - not 14!

"Working through the details" = lawyers are mulling, don't rule out an appeal yet!

NHS Fife could well be the first one to whack the appeal dong.