Open Letter to Dr Hilary Cass

[Sexnotgendah]

Cass did great work but this puberty blocker trial is a huge mistake
https://genspect.org/an-open-letter-from-genspect-to-dr-hilary-cass/

The real question here I think is, do you accept that for the vast majority of these children this is not the case? They are not dysphoric in the same way you were and don't need to be transitioned? That they should be left to go through puberty and see if the situation resolves as it does in 85% of these cases?
Do you agree that this trial will not prove anything and that therapy and watchful waiting would be a better solution for these kids?

And have you never wondered if you yourself might have reconciled yourself to your sex if you had been given proper therapy and help?

There is evidence that this is not the case for many transitioners. A lot of them come to realise that their problems have not gone away because it was never actually about their body. Some also end up having to face the truth that they haven't actually changed sex and that they are not seen as the opposite sex by the rest of society. It's not a cure. Quite often it just makes things worse.

I don't believe a beard and a flat chest define masculinity. They are merely culturally associated with it. But that's not even the reason I like them on myself.

If you truly believed you were a man, surely it wouldn’t matter what you looked like on the outside?

Indeed. I would feel like a man inside just as much if I dressed and looked like a stereotypical woman. I don't need to look more stereotypically male to feel more man; I just like it better that way. Some people (both men and women) put on makeup because they like what they look like with makeup on. Some people (both men and women) get tattoos for purely esthetic reasons. I grew a beard.

This is the key point. This is where a lot of transpeople who visit this board end up, and it sometimes gets heated because it is two contradictory viewpoints meeting head on.

You believe that men who identify as women, aka transwomen, are women. This is a belief than is not shared by most posters on here, probably because we tend to stick to demonstrable scientific fact as the basis for our opinions about things like sex and gender.
And the demonstrable scientific fact is that if you are born male, that's what you are and that's what you will always be. It is not possible for a human being to change sex.

It's difficult to argue with that scientific fact - I know there are outliers in the scientific world who do, but they are just that: outliers. It will take more than anecdotes from a poster - however sincere and well-meaning - about having an internal sense from childhood that they are in the wrong body to balance out the scientific evidence that human sex is binary and immutable.

Also, men saying they believe they are women is not neutral: it is appropriating an identity that is not theirs, and encroaching on relatively-recently-acquired rights which are specific to women as a social group. The refusal to respect women-only spaces a good example of the negative impact on women of the claim that the group 'women' also has to contain men - a suggestion so obviously illogical that it's amazing it has gained the traction it has.

I don't have one then. The only reason I know I'm a woman is my biology and the way I'm treated in society because of that biology. It's not innate or internal. I have no idea what it means to "feel like a woman" I only know how it feels to be me.

'I would feel like a man inside'

What does that mean, though? 'Like a man'?

So you admit it’s about stereotypes?

Gender dysphoria isn't a condition in and of itself. Its a symptom of a mental disorder and can be brought on by many different issues. Finding out what specific issue or issues caused this is surely the first step that needs to be taken before putting kids on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

Well, @MistyGreenAndBlue said: "I only know how it feels to be me." It's the same for me - except "me" is sexed male. Like, literally: my inner vision of myself, ever since I was a little child, had a penis. And when I grew up, it didn't have hips or breasts. It's not that I didn't want them there; it's more that they were bizarre growths that didn't belong. Even to this day, whenever I catch sight of myself in a photo or a mirror, I have a moment of, "Oh, weird!" at the sight of my hips. I don't hate them or anything; I just don't understand what they are doing here.

Do you believe that all women who put on makeup do it to conform to stereotypes of femininity?

You do understand that reading this, most peoples reaction is "it sounds like seethlaw needs significant mental health support. The absolute last thing she needs is to take puberty blockers or wrong sex hormones that will very likely cause massive physical harm whilst doing nothing to address the mental health issues".

Even if it were proven that there were precisely zero negative side effects I would still be arguing that there is no way that the best path involves affirming poor mental health when we have the option of trying to treat it.

That's very interesting, and thank you for sharing it. It's good that you feel more right about yourself now, but it is unfortunate that you couldn't just look at yourself as you were and think, 'Not perfect, but it'll do'.

As you say, it is just how you feel, as is Crafty's experience, as is mine. 'Fair play to you', as we say here in Ireland, for acknowledging that it is just anecdotal, and for not presenting your feelings and your experience as something everybody should agree with.

The big problem is that a very small number of very vocal and sometimes violent trans identifying men have somehow turned their anecdotal issues with biology into a disproportionately influential and, I believe, damaging social movement.

Your experience is probably going to be 'read' in that context, which is a pity as you as you have always pointed out that you are not claiming to be a trans spokesperson.

Is it only me that feels that, yet again, a thread is being derailed by one poster?

Frankly, having got further into the thread, I'm not inclined to make that assumption. The more I read, the more it sounds like "the script"

Yeah, sure, and I wouldn't even necessarily disagree. I mean, if doctors demonstrated tomorrow that transidentity is purely a mental illness, I'd go, "Makes sense."

The thing is, though, I can't even get proper help for much more common and debilitating MH issues, so I'm not going to wait until some miracle happens and I stumble upon a therapist who just happens to know how to go about dealing with that. It's simply not going to happen - so I go the way of lessening the discomfort with transition. It's not perfect, but it's better than - literally - nothing.

What do you think trans identity can possibly be other than mental illness? What other options are there?

Do you have sympathy with the idea that "gender dysphoria" is nothing more than a possible sympton of other mental health issues? For example some women with PTSD relating to SA will seek to reject the body that caused them to be a victim? An austic teen lesbian with internalized homophobia can only make sense of their feelings of attraction to women by thinking of themselves as a straight man?

Do you fear waking up one day and realizing that in mental health terms you are back to square one, only with significant physical health issues to deal with too?

The only difference I can think of is that the second person believes themselves to have a gendered soul that is separate from their sexed body... and that their soul is misaligned with their body.

The first person presumably doesn't believe themselves to be an amputee soul trapped in a bipedal body that is misaligned with their amputee-souled self. However, if they do believe that, there's no difference from what I can see.

Being a woman isn't a feeling, a male isn't somehow internally a woman just because they feel unhappy with how they look, their male body or a desire to have a female body. Its totally insulting to actual women to somehow assume that any of that makes you a woman or gives you the right to access out spaces or legal protections.

I accept that you and other males might feel very unhappy with who you are and that as an adult it's your right to do what you want to your body. However it needs to be very clear that none of that makes you actually a female or a woman and if you can understand that and respect the law then there is no issue.

What do you think trans identity can possibly be other than mental illness? What other options are there?

Neurological issues? As in, something wrong with the wiring of the brain?

(Oops, posted by mistake, sorry!)

Do you have sympathy with the idea that "gender dysphoria" is nothing more than a possible sympton of other mental health issues?

Sure, that's a possibility. Maybe not in all cases, I don't know, but certainly in some.

Do you fear waking up one day and realizing that in mental health terms you are back to square one, only with significant physical health issues to deal with too?

No. My dysphoria has always been there, and nothing has ever created so much as a dent in it, so I have no reason to believe it's going to magically disappear. But should it disappear one day? Heh, cool! One thing less to deal with :)

I can agree that the second person potentially believes that their gendered soul was born in the wrong(-sexed) body... but they could just feel something like what we call gender dysphoria and have no metaphysical explaination for it.

I am not sure why you assume that the first person doesn't feel that they have a "legless soul" or an "amputee soul" and that aligning the body to match the soul is the answer. It seems to me to be perfectly palusible that some people with BIID do feel like that (but perhaps we simply have not listened to their voices)?

You might be right, but I am not convinced that you are.

Adults have a right to do what they want to their body, subject to the restrictions that society places on them either to protect the (potentially vulnerable) adult themselves or to protect society from the consequences.

I believe that in the case of medical transition there is very good reason for society to restrict adult transition, for the benefit of the trans person AND wider society.

Thank you :) !

I don't really know what to say, other than "I agree with all this." Including and especially the "damaging social movement" bit. I had personal experience with these types back when I transitioned and dipped a toe into the trans community (if you can call it that, really), and I was appalled at how profoundly nasty they could be with anyone who didn't fawn to them. And more than a bit afraid at how easily they resorted to verbal and emotional violence. I'm not at all surprised that this violence turned physical as well. They really act like the worst of men, through and through.

Earlier you said "I can't even get proper help for much more common and debilitating MH issues, so I'm not going to wait until some miracle happens and I stumble upon a therapist who just happens to know how to go about dealing with that. It's simply not going to happen - so I go the way of lessening the discomfort with transition."

Now you are saying "My dysphoria has always been there, and nothing has ever created so much as a dent in it"

Which one is it? Is transition lessening your discomfort (whilst not actually being a solution) as you first said, or has your transition failed to reduce your discomfort at all as you have just said?

It seems to me that if all transition has done has lessened your discomfort, then that can only be a good option if the physical negative side effects are very small. (I believe that the negative side effects are massive)

If the latter is true and transition has done no good, then if transition cost money or gave even the most trivial of negative side effects then it was definitely not a good idea.

Apologies if I misinterpreted - re-reading maybe you meant nothing put a dent in it until medical transition? Or maybe you meant social transition? Or maybe you meant social transition helped a bit and medical helped a bit more?

Fair enough.

TBH now that I no longer believe that anyone has a gender identity, it's really hard to put myself in the shoes of someone who does hold this belief who also wants to do something permanent and harmful their body to match their belief.

It always strikes me as being akin to the extreme end of religious belief. Such as the Christians of Jonestown and Waco or the Muslim suicide bomber in Manchester.