The Times has seen a copy of EHRC's final guidance

[Igneococcus]

and it looks like it's pretty rubbish:
"Under the new guidance, places such as hospital wards, gyms and leisure centres will be able to question transgender women over whether they should be using single-sex services based on how they look, their behaviour or concerns raised by others."

https://www.thetimes.com/article/82eecc43-711f-4c0a-b669-42d09d60d63e?shareToken=e5c7b92df4468caa07dbd71d66c660ab

I think that most women if they are in doubt, will not say anything. So masculine looking women and very passing transwomen will be left alone. Women might hurry out but it takes a lot to challenge someone in the womens toilets. And unlike what most transactivists think, most women aren’t mean or out to hurt people.

Changing rooms are different, less place to hide. Then it is also clear if the person is a masculine woman or a feminine man, so I would expect most of the challenges there.

in sports, it is often known within the teams so hard to keep quiet if there is a transwoman playing. Plus at a certain level sports are asking for medicial verification.

Healthcare, medical records should never ever be changed. It is dangerous to change the sex identifier and I would expect any drug usage is clearly added.

I am sure practical solutions can be found. But transactivists don’t want practical, their starting point is that transwomen will break the law and harrass women in womens facilities and endanger them in womens sports. Their opinion is that transwomen are incapable of following policies and laws like other people can. I think transwomen are better than that but lets see

Well the two I've come across with full beards don't/didn't seem to have much dysphoria....

So you’ve come across two trans women with beards and that means all trans women are the same?

Trans people could be barred from services based on appearance - BBC News

To a woman who cannot use mixed sex spaces, it doesn't matter if the man has a beard or is beautifully feminised. It doesn't matter what he's wearing, it doesn't matter if he's absolutely lovely, it doesn't matter how he feels or what his intentions might be.

If he's in the women's single sex space, or even if she knows he might be, she has been excluded.

She does not matter less than he does. Inclusion means everyone, not just men with trans identities.

Mixed sex additional facilities as per the EHRC guidance, will mean they both have accessible spaces.

All trans women are the same sex - they are male.

We were talking about gender dysphoria. Please keep up

It's not clear why gender dysphoria is relevant. It doesn't change somebody's sex.

of course two people doesn't define a whole category - but if 100% of those someone has come across clearly show no sign of gender dysphoria then that suggests a trend... besides the evidence is out there and obvious - just go looking for it.

despite all that - and despite the usual tactic of 'let's pick an irrelevancy and argue about it so that we can pretend we have proven our main point'... it is irrelevant...

not having men in a women's space has nothing to do with the men - it is about the women and allowing them their own space. 100% of men could have gender dysphoria, and there would still be no justification in allowing any one of them into women's spaces...

and I can guarantee that not all men have gender dysphoria - I don't and as a man I respect that women have their own spaces - I don't feel threatened by that, instead I feel that is the sign of a mature and civilised society - even to the extent that where there are threads on here (like the bluestocking pub) which are desired to be women only - I don't enter / I don't post - that is called respect.

letting a man with gender dysphoria into women's spaces doesn't resolve their gender dysphoria, and we don't resolve one person's mental health issue by negatively affecting 50% of the population...

a man with gender dysphoria is still a man.

and men do not go into women's spaces - simple, easy, the law, end of discussion. #noDebate

According to Gender GP its a common misconception that all transgender people have gender dysphoria

Why would this happen? Is the assumption that until now people thought they were men, but were happy for them to use women’s facilities?

This is a really good point!! Thank you.

Thanks for all the advice generally. It is hard though when being positioned as the person not caring about gender conforming women, and arguing 'well you didn't care about women before, or these other women' doesn't feel like strong position. It feels a like a dismissal of the example of women being humilataed they've just presented.

I think there will be examples thrown around of this happneing because they want it to happen, (didn't it happne to Jolyons wife 🙄) then it will fade away as it's never really been a thing.
We know who the women are.

I don’t think what Gender GP offer should be regarded as trans healthcare or authority on what makes someone trans

It is very transphobic of you to suggest most transpeople have gender dysphoria and need treatment.

Many have no dysphoria and are just living their best authetic selves by wearing different clothes and using different toilets. Who are you to say they are not trans?

Your biogotry against trans people is all over this thread.

Trans people are whaever they say they are: dysphoric, or not dysphoric, needing medical treatment, not needing it, changing sex or not, swapping between geneders at will, being as gender nonconfroming as they want or don't want, demonding varied pronouns.
It's whatever they say they are they are. OK?

Dysphoria, is by definition, a mental health issue. Lots of us experience some degree of bodily dysphoria during our lives. This results in a mis-match between how we would like our body to look, and what it actually looks like. Body parts can come to carry negative emotional weight or can be the carriers of emotional trauma.

I'm sure lots of people who go on to identify as trans do have intense negative feelings about their body, though lots of others ( especially men) are motivated by erotic fascination and obsession - which often starts out as cross dressing practices in childhood ( Grayson Perry talks about the mechanics and the development of this in his memoir) but can then take over the life and lead to a desire to 'transition' full time.

I'm not sure why we are supposed to be especially empathic to people who feel they want to be the other sex. Everyone can be the recipient of empathy, but simply claiming gender dysphoria does not make you a special case requiring the smooth and immediate facilitation of your desires - over and above those of everyone else.

What or who is the authority on what makes someone trans?

Not at all. But the argument is that we are all supposed to budge up to allow all transwomen in and by default other men who just use the loophole.

You can't discriminate between transwomen. You have to treat them all equally.

People who adopt trans identities for whatever reason or motive remain either male or female...just like everyone else.

Simply by observation, the transfolx with dysphoria seem to be heavily outnumbered by the fetishists. Although that's a Venn diagram rather than two completely separate categories.

That's the male transfolx, of course. The female ones, being female, are welcome in female single sex spaces even if they wish they weren't female.

Yes, we’ve already covered this and I agree with you.

If an evil lunatic TRA like Helen Webberley supports the idea that not all trans identifying people have gender dysphoria we should listen to her.

For trans identifying people who don't have gender dysphoria the hormones & surgery are a lifestyle choice because of AGP or another fetish.

The goal of the campaign for self ID was to de-medicalise the process of obtaining a GRC. She might be a quack, but she isn't misrepresenting the consensus amongst organisations recognised as trans advocates.

But you are talking about such people as 'being trans' as if they are some unique category of human being. They are not. What they are doing is adopting a trans identity. We can all adopt 'an identity' and seek to live it out or perform it.

What about the American Psychiatric Association who say

Not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria and that distinction is important to keep in mind. Gender dysphoria and/or coming out as transgender can occur at any age.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/expert-q-and-a

I am so, so annoyed at the way this has been reported. What the guidance is trying to lay out is a common sense approach to how services should deal with scenarios where someone who is quite obviously a man is in a female-only space.

But this is being spun as toilet policing, with gender-non conforming "cis" women being targeted. It is such manipulative bollocks, whose primary aim is to make sure that no man can ever be challenged in women's single-sex spaces. I want journalists to do their bloody jobs and challenge these type of ridiculous claims.

And of course the usual suspects (Owen Jones, Zack Polanski etc) are absolutely loving how this is being framed so they can cry about how dystopian it is and oh won't someone please think of the poor, butch lesbians.