The Times has seen a copy of EHRC's final guidance

[Igneococcus]

and it looks like it's pretty rubbish:
"Under the new guidance, places such as hospital wards, gyms and leisure centres will be able to question transgender women over whether they should be using single-sex services based on how they look, their behaviour or concerns raised by others."

https://www.thetimes.com/article/82eecc43-711f-4c0a-b669-42d09d60d63e?shareToken=e5c7b92df4468caa07dbd71d66c660ab

I was being sarcastic. Just because I don’t share your beliefs it doesn’t meant I can’t empathise with or understand your position

Sure.

”Maybe it’s possible they share the same aversion to sharing spaces with men that you do?”

That's a problem men have with other men, it's not our job to sort out men's problems for them.

If men don't like men wearing women's clothes, then take it up with the men, leave us out of it.

I believe you don’t have a firm grasp on safeguarding principles.

Publicly provided single sex provisions are single sex so that not one female person has to individually do an instant ‘case by case’ assessment on a male person who has entered a single sex provision they should not be in, and who knows they should not be in.

This means no female person has to evaluate whether that male person passes, doesn’t pass, has good intentions or not. That is the aim of robust safeguarding principles in action in publicly accessed single sex spaces.

Except you do share our position: humans can't change sex.

How about we agree that there should be single sex spaces and a gender neutral option for people who don't want that?

Would you agree to that? If not why not?

(It doesn't actaully matter if you agree because it's the SCJ, But warning: if you do agree you're a transphobe denying trans people very exitsence. You Big Terf.)

Most peoople have empathy, but our priority has to be empathy for women and girls especially when it comes to their own protected spaces, services and categories.Empathy does not mean becoming a door mat or ceding your own intimate needs because of other people's emotional struggles.

I don't think you can speak for all trans identified men, because there are certainly some who enjoy intruding on women's intimate spaces or who get a "frisson" from it.

What would you say these beliefs are.....the ones you do not share?

Back to the guidance and some advice from FWR women please:

How will you respond to the accusation that masculine women are going to be targeted and refused entry to SSS?

I had this thrown at me in a discussion and I don't think I answered it well so any thoughts would be helpful.

So what did you mean when you said this:

No, I don’t think trans people have changed sex.

I would suggest to people that is very rare and has certainly never happened to you or anyone else you know. Most people know the difference between a woman with short hair and 'masculine attire' and an actual man.

Explain that the reason this may have occured in more recent times is down to the publicity and the confusion that has been generated around the concept of gender and gender identity...but with time and with clear rules around the use of designated single sex spaces this should gradually fade as a potential issue.

Ask them to speak.

'Masculine women' don't sound male.

"Trans people generally try to use the space that causes the least amount of fuss. "

That might be true of women who are trans, but the men are all about the validation and the dishonest claims that men are unsafe in the men's.

I am not sure this is true. IMHO, however tiny the numbers, over time the horror stories would emerge and there would have been massive pushback anyway.

It is possible that a TRA in a postion to do so would turn on women complaining and say they need to leave the women space.

How many times could they do this and keep their business or job is the question.

It’s interesting that it stopped working when an increasingly honest press started publishing thousands of honest articles about trans people, which happened to be very negative about men in women's spaces.

This is true.But I think the accusations are going to be that some women are challenged and humiliated in that process.

Unfortunately I think this may be true, as I think TRAs will delibtarely make it happen or amplify the rare occasions it does happen.

It does seem like an inevitable side effect of the process of having to push back against the trans ideology and policies, and saying a few women are going to have to suffer feels a weak resposne, even if true.

This is very helpful thank you.

My first thought would be to laud the care and concern for women potentially being caused discomfort and even exclusion from women's spaces....

and ask how the speaker had supported the women being caused discomfort and exclusion from women's spaces all this time when men have been encouraged to use the space they find 'most comfortable' with utter disregard for the impact upon women.

I have to say, unless they were also equally concerned for the exclusion of any women, I would be rather cynical about the motives of the speaker. The same case for the frequently thrown around phrase 'butch lesbians' and great concern mentioned regarding them experiencing being challenged in women's spaces, when no concerns were raised regarding the lesbian groups being driven underground by men invading them, the attempts to make lesbians feel they needed to 'learn to cope' with straight sex in order to validate a man's gender expression without having any business wishing for more from a sexual experience than finding a way to 'cope' with providing the man with sexual access to their body..... <pause to shudder there> and publicly funded conferences to brainstorm ways for men to gain access to sex with non consenting lesbian women through the 'cotton ceiling' - literally how to get the knickers off non consenting lesbians to gain the desired use of their body. Unless the speaker was as concerned about those lesbians, I would be deeply cynical about the concern being displayed for these lesbians.

Because it would make the speaker look as though they had no concern for women at all but were merely adopting a pretense of it in the attempt to force men into women's spaces against women's consent and needs.

And then really it comes down to whether some women in the short term being challenged because of women's trust having been damaged by men in their spaces is worse than women being entirely excluded from any space by men being freely permitted into their spaces. And the point made by Sex Matters very early on about when you have chosen to look in a way that may, genuinely, cause another person confusion about your sex, you need yourself to take some responsibility for that.

Most women with trans identities, including beards, usually only have to smile and speak for another women to know their sex. And women tend to be considerably more sensitive to other women's needs and feelings than men are, hence many women with trans identities looking for alternatives themselves to women's spaces. And I personally am more than willing to reassure any woman who needs it without minding in the least, if this means that no women are excluded from women's single sex spaces and unable to access women's single sex resources. Once trust is resumed that these spaces are only for women and men cease to try and use them, the problem will go.

So the key thing really is: is this a genuine concern for women? Or is this a rather unpleasant use of some women in the attempt to force men upon all women?

I think it will be the same as any other situation when others are challenged. It’s always been the case that some feel confident enough to challenge something out loud and in public, whilst others will not want the drama and will not openly challenge because that’s not who they are. Coupled up with there’s always going to be a 50/50 situation, where the certainty isn’t there,

Tough... and let's say it loud and clear:

Everywhere a transwoman goes they will be sharing a space with a man - because they are that man... whatever their feelings, they can not change science or biological reality...

If they genuinely hold an incorrect belief that they are a woman instead of a man (and we are talking a tiny % of 'trans people' who actually have gender dysphoria), then the answer is to have their mental health issues treated - and yes, we should be compassionate about that and treat those MH issues as we do others... but for all the rest who are playing games or who have more sinister reasons - it really is simple for those born men - go and pee in the gents, and those born women, there are ladies loos set aside for you...

I see no empathy issues with requiring men to pee with men and women with women - seems pretty logical really - and as a bloke, if a 'trans woman' were to come into the gents wearing fishnet tights, a mini skirt and crop top - up to them, I tend not to interact with others in the loos anyway...

Why would this happen? Is the assumption that until now people thought they were men, but were happy for them to use women’s facilities?

It doesn’t make sense. Single sex services are not new.

I believe that some women may be receiving homophobic abuse, but I don’t believe that anyone is confused about their sex.

Maybe this video clip about Nick Tino that Amy Sousa has done is a useful perspective.

x.com/knownheretic/status/1991250979896062379?s=46

No one gets upset about the religious or vulnerable women who are forced out of women's facilities cos the men are in there.

The sudden care about masculine women is only because it serves the interests of men who want to force their way into female facilities - and by definition force out the above women.

Frankly it is a travesty that the onus is completely on the venue, proprietor, staff etc to keep TIMs out of female spaces. Female spaces are for females only - PER LAW! Meaning if you are a male and you willfully enter a space that you know is female only you are willfully breaking the law and should be charged with criminal trespassing. Is that not what used to happen prior to all this nonsense? In sane times if a woman saw a man enter a women's bathroom she would fetch a policeman and he would be arrested, done and done.

If men know they can be criminally charged if they attempt to enter a woman's bathroom that will at the very least greatly reduce attempts. The staff won't be forced into an awkward or potentially dangerous confrontation they could just call the police.

But the way this is written is just going to open the door to all forms of harassment. Think about it, the kind of men who want access to female spaces are doing it TO BEGIN WITH for attention and the thrill of knowing they're where they're not supposed to be. Without holding the men legally responsible for their actions it's just going to increase confrontations.

I feel bad for the 18yo girl working at Primark who's expected to tell a 6' 250 lbs 50 yo man to get out of the women's dressing room or else... What? Even if she's legally in the right, do you really think he's going to budge? Bc worst thing that could happen is she calls the police, they come and tell him to leave, he does, and walks right into the next Primark.

Edit:typo

Where is the evidence that most trans people
don’t actually have gender dysphoria? What treatment is available to help them?