The Times has seen a copy of EHRC's final guidance

[Igneococcus]

and it looks like it's pretty rubbish:
"Under the new guidance, places such as hospital wards, gyms and leisure centres will be able to question transgender women over whether they should be using single-sex services based on how they look, their behaviour or concerns raised by others."

https://www.thetimes.com/article/82eecc43-711f-4c0a-b669-42d09d60d63e?shareToken=e5c7b92df4468caa07dbd71d66c660ab

Lots of empathy. Lots. Others people’s beliefs - not my problem.

Are we reading a different thread? There are plenty of problem here who insist that trans women have to share with men

Why does the desire of a male trans person to use women's spaces trump women's needs for a single sex space?

Why do you care about the feelings of 1 man over the rights of all the women who want single sex spaces?

The fact that it's so few men who want this makes it worse. Don't you see that? 1 man's feelings more important than women's rights?

Why can't the sad man use a gender neutral space? Wouldn't that be win win?
He'd not have to use the men's and the women's is only for women.

Why does he have to use the women's?

We know why.

Yes I have. The SC judgement applies to organisations, employers and so forth, but not to individuals. It clarifies those organisations legal responsibilities to provide single sex spaces.

It does not criminalise individuals who, for whatever reason, go into the wrong space for their sex. The EA does not apply to individuals.

It remains true that a man in a woman's loo is not (absent any other activities) breaking any law.

Let me be clearer as perhaps I should have said this in the previous post - we are extremely unlikely to see a law which criminalises individuals for being in the wrong sex space.

I don’t. And I’m fairly hardline. I just don’t want them in the women’s. If people want to set up third spaces, I have no issue. Not really anything to do with women needing single sex spaces as long as the red line is observed.

I don’t share your gender critical beliefs so I don’t understand or empathise with your position. You’re right, it’s not my problem

Given that trespass is dealt with under civil, not criminal law, I agree that it seems very unlikely that it would ever be a criminal offence to use an opposite sex toilet.

Could you now tell us which other beliefs society should fully support one group’s philosophical belief about themselves that doesn’t reflect material reality to the extent that the belief negatively impacts female people and female people’s needs are considered not important?

”Maybe it’s possible they share the same aversion to sharing spaces with men that you do?”

There are many groups of male people who have an ‘aversion’ to sharing spaces with other male people. Does that mean all those male people should be accessing female single sex provisions?

Since when did female people become therapeutic resources or security resources for groups of male people who are not children under about 8 years old?

But gosh… empathy huh?

My understanding is that while there is no criminal law banning men from women's spaces there is law. Hence all.of the tribunals about sexual harassment / harassment / discrimination etc

I don’t care if you understand or empathize with my position. We have a law. If you want to campaign to change the law there’s a way to do so.

Until the law is changed this is what it says. Everyone needs to follow it. Everyone.

No, I don’t think trans people have changed sex. I just think it isn’t helpful to treat them
as their birth sex in all circumstances.

Not in all circumstances no (not sure how you'd treat someone as a man or women in all circumstances?) but when sex discrimination is allowed for a legitimate aim.

If you agree they remain their biological sex how do you not recognsie this should apply when sex is relevant?

Presumably you don't belive in single sex spaces being a legitimate aim? It would be easier if you just said this so we could argue whether it is or not, instead of this obfuscation where you pretend we should have single sex spaces for women but also let some male people into them.

Yes you do. You are as GC as we are. You said:

No, I don’t think trans people have changed sex.

Welcome to TERF Island!

Yes. If there is no mixed sex alternative.

It would be unlawful to discriminate against somebody because of their gender critical beliefs, but you are under no obligation to share them.

However, the law on single sex spaces relates to the protected characteristic of sex, not belief.

Yes.

Because that's what safeguarding is.

Did you miss that training session?

OneDeepLimeScroller

I’m not saying no one has abused it. Does the tiny percentage of people abusing the system mean we should remove it for the majority trying to quietly live their lives?

Surely you can see that if you let one in, you let all in? What about women who, for whatever reason, cannot be in a space with a man?

Tough on them, because some TW aren't behaving badly, though their presence is upsetting?

I second this.

I am not sure it would fall into trespass either to be honest, but it's an interesting idea. Maybe it could?

I don't think it would fall under trespass, but I think the reasoning is similar.

So why are you attempting to emotionally blackmail other people about whether they have any empathy, given you don’t have any yourself? Hypocritical, no?

I doubt anyone here is too bothered what you think about them tbh.

I'm fed up of this.

Safeguarding training going to the wind and is ignored because identity training is somehow more important.

Except it's not. It's the other way round. It's just that safeguarding isn't trendy but identity is.

That's the difference.

And we are supposed to ignore safeguarding training when it doesn't suit identity issues. Which is literally the very thing you shouldnt do with safeguarding.

It is absolutely fucking bonkers.

I do not belive men can become women or that we should pretend some men are women so I don't empathise with people who do think that or wish it was true.
I don't care which toilet they use as long as it's not the women's.
Not my problem.

And the law agrees.

If you have no empathy for women why were you imagining you could shame us into having empathy for male trans people?

Funnily enough, a page back on this thread, @OneDeepLimeScroller said:

No, I don’t think trans people have changed sex.

Literal genocide!!

If a male person makes a deliberate choice to enter a female single sex space, knowing that they should not be in that space, and that it may distress female people in that space, what is their motivation that society must support?

Are you so lacking in empathy that you cannot see the issues for women?

I hear you. You would really like for women not to have any issues with men in their spaces, or at least not ones that anyone mentions. And failing that, you would really like for those women not to matter and their voices not to be heard and for their needs to go unmet. And you would like men's rights to have primacy.

It's certainly a point of view.