Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why the NHS puberty blocker trial is appalling

1000 replies

Soontobe60 · 16/11/2025 14:43

Stella O’Malley from Genspect telling it like it is - that a state endorsed trial of puberty blockers for gender dysphoric children should NOT go ahead.
the NHS are not walking into this nightmare blindly - there are enough experts out there telling them what will happen happen to these children if they’re given these life changing drugs.
https://x.com/genspect/status/1989896741358113127?s=61&t=gKvvk-rWmOlYFGMZN8QVvQ

Genspect (@genspect) on X

In a conversation about the Next Generation, podcast host Elliot Bewick @elliotbewick talks with @stellaomalley3 : “This won't be puberty because their reproductive system won't be awakened, it will be a chemical insurgents into their body…and so they...

https://x.com/genspect/status/1989896741358113127?s=61&t=gKvvk-rWmOlYFGMZN8QVvQ

OP posts:
Thread gallery
82
moto748e · 11/12/2025 14:24

RNApolymerase · 11/12/2025 14:23

This was reported on main BBC lunchtime news today including a brief interview with Keira Bell and another with James Esses.

The times the are a-changing'.

A bit.

WarriorN · 11/12/2025 16:00

Annoyingly not on the app yet.

flu in kids is dominating right now

(and to be fair, my own teen son was hit very badly last week, as well as several of his friends. They’ve all had a week off school)

Slothtoes · 11/12/2025 16:33

Just coming on to say thanks and good luck Keira Bell, you’re a total hero of mine (yet again!) that’s from me and coking on behalf of the autistic girls in my family who are being exposed to gender identity stuff online.

Secondly a few pages back someone (missed the username sorry) said of a mum of a GNC child who is wanting to be medicated: ‘ I guarantee she'd want him on this trial if she can because it would save her money.’

Very naively, I hadn’t really even considered that.
How are Wes Streeting and MPs not very alarmed when they hear of this. The prohibitive cost of this privately funded (known- harm, unproven-benefit) ‘treatment’ for some people is likely to be keeping the take-up artificially low. The prospect of a trail being offered on the NHS is a way for some parents who have been able to say no to feel even more pressured into saying yes. Because the NHS paying for the PBs either allows their kids to start medication or it helps with family finances if they are already paying for things privately. And it all has this nice misleading veneer on top of being the NHS, who wouldn’t offer kids something dangerous, would they.

The financial angle to this PB trial participation on top of everything else about the harms that we already know that PBs incur, makes it just ever more unethical to even think of trialling because it’s not a neutral offer and the already known harms outweigh the already known benefits.

I feel like the politicians are just wanting to follow Cass right or wrong, because that way they can’t be seen to have stuck their own neck out on a polarising issue. The trialling of PBs is an instance where Cass is wrong. Most of what she says is great. Not this part. That’s OK. Still a good report. More personal experience is emerging all the time since Cass (in the absence of proper record keeping) and none of it seems to support giving kids PBs.

Imnobody4 · 12/12/2025 11:04

From the Guardian.
(Streeting says he cannot guarantee patient safety if resident doctors’ strike goes ahead amid flu pressures – UK politics live https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/dec/12/rachel-reeves-economy-budget-gdp-nhs-flu-streeting-assisted-dying-latest-news-updates?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-693be0808f0870f8fd926083#block-693be0808f0870f8fd926083

Keep pushing he just needs a good cover to stop it.
Q: You are allowing a trial of puberty blockers for children questioning their gender. Some children involved will be as young as 10. Why are you allowing this?Streeting says in her report Hilary Cass uncovered a shocking lack of evidence about the effectiveness of these treatments.As a result, the government stopped the use of puberty blockers, and Streeting says he extended this.But Cass also recommended a trial, he says.He admits he is “not comfortable” about this going ahead.But he says, in allowing it to go ahead, he is following the clinical advice.He says he is uncomfortable about the idea of stopping puberty.But he says other countries use these drugs. There is some evidence that it is better than leaving trans people without treatment, and all the distress that comes with that.This does not sit comfortably with him, he says.But, as a politician, he does not want to interfer with clinicians who know far more about this topic than he does.

Streeting says he cannot guarantee patient safety if resident doctors’ strike goes ahead amid flu pressures – UK politics live

Health secretary says aggressive strain of virus is putting NHS under worst strain since Covid

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/dec/12/rachel-reeves-economy-budget-gdp-nhs-flu-streeting-assisted-dying-latest-news-updates?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-693be0808f0870f8fd926083#block-693be0808f0870f8fd926083

PrettyDamnCosmic · 12/12/2025 11:18

Imnobody4 · 11/12/2025 13:27

On BBC site today!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyvg6l5nypgo

Legal letters from the campaigners have been delivered to the Health Research Authority (HRA) and the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Authority (MHRA), which have given the puberty blockers trial ethical approval.

I hadn't heard Keira speak until I saw her on the BBC. Her voice has clearly been irreversibly altered by testosterone.

moto748e · 12/12/2025 11:44

That's weak from Streeting.

"The experts know better than me". Do they? What do you we can learn from this trial, Wes?

WarriorN · 12/12/2025 12:02

Slothtoes · 11/12/2025 16:33

Just coming on to say thanks and good luck Keira Bell, you’re a total hero of mine (yet again!) that’s from me and coking on behalf of the autistic girls in my family who are being exposed to gender identity stuff online.

Secondly a few pages back someone (missed the username sorry) said of a mum of a GNC child who is wanting to be medicated: ‘ I guarantee she'd want him on this trial if she can because it would save her money.’

Very naively, I hadn’t really even considered that.
How are Wes Streeting and MPs not very alarmed when they hear of this. The prohibitive cost of this privately funded (known- harm, unproven-benefit) ‘treatment’ for some people is likely to be keeping the take-up artificially low. The prospect of a trail being offered on the NHS is a way for some parents who have been able to say no to feel even more pressured into saying yes. Because the NHS paying for the PBs either allows their kids to start medication or it helps with family finances if they are already paying for things privately. And it all has this nice misleading veneer on top of being the NHS, who wouldn’t offer kids something dangerous, would they.

The financial angle to this PB trial participation on top of everything else about the harms that we already know that PBs incur, makes it just ever more unethical to even think of trialling because it’s not a neutral offer and the already known harms outweigh the already known benefits.

I feel like the politicians are just wanting to follow Cass right or wrong, because that way they can’t be seen to have stuck their own neck out on a polarising issue. The trialling of PBs is an instance where Cass is wrong. Most of what she says is great. Not this part. That’s OK. Still a good report. More personal experience is emerging all the time since Cass (in the absence of proper record keeping) and none of it seems to support giving kids PBs.

Edited

the biggest part missing from this conversation for me is the placebo effect

I was happily listening to a podcast last week (a research psychiatrist who’d spent her career exploring the benefits of multivitamins on mental health conditions) and she said that in teens, the LARGEST outcome was due to placebo effect.

double blind controlled etc, for a variety of difficulties including adhd.

you simply can’t do that with this trial so how do you know if it’s not placebo??

WarriorN · 12/12/2025 12:03

This podcast from 32 mins in

she’s in NZ

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-doctors-kitchen-podcast/id1316938642?i=1000737348403

WarriorN · 12/12/2025 12:06

By the way, JK is on a roll today

Why the NHS puberty blocker trial is appalling
LikeAHandleInTheWind · 12/12/2025 12:39

The bottom line is this is junk science - they are proposing having 2 groups -
In the immediate treatment group the children are given blockers straight away.
In the delayed start group they wait a year.

But they have wide age range and will have an variable duration of gender dysphoria.

So a child in the immediate treatment group group might be 14 when they start treatment, with a 2 year history of dysphoria.

Another child could enter the study aged 13 with a 1 year history of dysphoria, be in the delayed start group so start blockers aged 14 with a 2 year history of dysphoria.

How on earth can you learn anything here?

It's a rubbish trial design and the most shocking part of this is that it's been passed by a REC & MHRA - it's junk.

TheKeatingFive · 12/12/2025 14:51

At what point are we going to address/tackle trans activists tactics of using violence and threats to get what they want?

eatfigs · 12/12/2025 15:23

By expressing his doubts, could he be testing the waters a bit before pulling the plug?

DisappearingGirl · 12/12/2025 15:46

I like Wes. He's a good combination of sensible and politically savvy (which you do need to be). I actually think he's being fairly honest here.

It must be very difficult for a politician, who's not a doctor and not trained in clinical trial design, to feel they can start meddling in a clinical trial which has been passed by the ethics committee etc. In general it's a good thing that it's frowned on for politicians to meddle directly in health or research (imagine what the current US government might do if this was more acceptable).

I just hope he's able to apply pressure behind the scenes for it to be looked at again.

ScrollingLeaves · 12/12/2025 15:59

I see the fake suicide statistics have been rolled out again by TRAs I hope Wes Streeting knows they are entirely misleading.

Dr Kaltiala who is a highly experienced adolescent gender medicine expert from Finland, where they were very progressive at one point about affirming gender questioning children, explains how mistaken an idea it is:

Excerpt from article February 2023:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/finland-youth-gender-medicine
Finland Takes Another Look at Youth Gender Medicine.

Turning to the question of suicide, which has become virtually the only argument that “gender affirming” activists make in support of their preferred practice, Kaltiala did not pull her punches. The popular “transition or suicide” narrative used by activists to push back against state reform efforts is, in Kaltiala’s words, “purposeful disinformation, and spreading it is irresponsible.”

Much of the public confusion about the suicide issue stems from a simple correlation-causation fallacy. While there is evidence that teenagers who identify as transgender have elevated rates of suicide and suicidality (a behavior that, researchers emphasize, often involved thoughts of suicide or nonfatal self-harming gestures and should not to be confused with actual suicide or serious attempts to end one’s life), there is no evidence that their elevated risk is because of unaffirmed gender identity or that social and medical transition will reduce their risk for self-harm. Studies purporting to find that hormones reduce suicidality are typically designed in such a way that valid inferences about cause and effect cannot be drawn. Considering that roughly three-quarters of teenagers who present to gender clinics these days have preexisting mental health conditions like depression and autism, which are themselves risk factors for suicidality, it is probably more accurate to say that teenagers with suicidal inclinations are more likely to gravitate toward a trans identity.

Thankfully, moreover, suicide is extremely rare even among transgender-identified youth. There was no epidemic of suicides among gender-distressed teenagers before “gender affirming” hormones became available roughly 15 years ago. A study from the U.K. found that the suicide rate among minors seeking medical transition between 2010 and 2020 was 0.03%—nothing close to the 41% risk commonly cited by American activists. Suicide, according to Helsingin Sanomat, was a “very rare occurrence in about ten years among young people seeking gender identity diagnoses. On the other hand, in a large Swedish study, suicide mortality had clearly increased among adults who had received gender reassignment treatments.” For Kaltiala, “it is not justified to tell the parents of young people identifying as transgender that a young person is at risk of suicide without medical treatments and that the danger can be alleviated with gender reassignment.”

Indeed, the suicide discourse that has come to dominate gender transition activism may itself contribute more to youth self-harm than the bans on hormones and surgeries currently being passed in U.S. states. As Alison Clayton has argued in a peer-reviewed paper, “an excessive focus on an exaggerated suicide risk narrative by clinicians and the media may create a damaging nocebo effect (... “self-fulfilling prophecy” ...) whereby suicidality in these vulnerable youths may be further exacerbated.” Tell kids that being suicidal is inherent to being transgender and that only hormones will solve their problem, and many may indeed become suicidal. The “affirm or suicide” discourse also runs counter to the recommendations of the Centers for Disease Control, which emphasizes that “[s]uicide is never the result of a single factor or event” and warns against “presenting simplistic explanations for suicide.” It’s hard to think of a better example of “simplistic explanations” than “trans kids kill themselves when not given hormones.”

Why the obsessive emphasis on the suicide issue? The obvious reason is that if suicide is the expected outcome, any risk from hormones and surgeries is probably worth it. The suicide discourse has the effect, and probably also the intent, of preventing patients and clinicians from doing a careful weighing of pros and cons when deciding on treatment options. It strikes fear into the hearts of parents who worry about the risks and uncertainties about blocking their children’s natural puberty, pumping them full of synthetic hormones, and amputating their healthy breasts as early as age 13. It is also a powerful tool for silencing critics and—crucially—deterring those who have questions about hormonal interventions from raising them in the first place.

Kaltiala thinks that the suicide discourse is being pushed by “adults who have themselves benefited from gender reassignment, have a desire to go out and save children and young children. But they lack understanding that a child is not a small adult.” Activists are driven by a combination of motives including misguided empathy, a savior complex, and projection.

WarriorN · 12/12/2025 16:05

eatfigs · 12/12/2025 15:23

By expressing his doubts, could he be testing the waters a bit before pulling the plug?

Potentially- I have a conspiracy theory that the Prescott memo was deliberately leaked in order to pave the way for the bbc to give much more balanced reporting on things like the pb trial, Sandie Peggie and the Darlington nurses.

the times are certainly doing Stirling work on all this, as are journalists such Sonia Sodha

moto748e · 12/12/2025 16:08

Activists are driven by a combination of motives including misguided empathy, a savior complex, and projection.

And some motives considerably murkier than those, no doubt.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/12/2025 16:10

WarriorN · 12/12/2025 16:05

Potentially- I have a conspiracy theory that the Prescott memo was deliberately leaked in order to pave the way for the bbc to give much more balanced reporting on things like the pb trial, Sandie Peggie and the Darlington nurses.

the times are certainly doing Stirling work on all this, as are journalists such Sonia Sodha

As are the Telegraph & Mail. Still waiting for the Guardian to join the dots but with the BBC having recently been shamed into more accurate ethical reporting, maybe they'll one day wake up and be aware of how they've sold women and children down the river? No..?

InterrobangsArePureBias · 13/12/2025 00:34

Rumours are that the splendid Deb Cohen has a radio(?) piece on the trial next week.

ArabellaSaurus · 13/12/2025 07:58

ScrollingLeaves · 12/12/2025 15:59

I see the fake suicide statistics have been rolled out again by TRAs I hope Wes Streeting knows they are entirely misleading.

Dr Kaltiala who is a highly experienced adolescent gender medicine expert from Finland, where they were very progressive at one point about affirming gender questioning children, explains how mistaken an idea it is:

Excerpt from article February 2023:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/finland-youth-gender-medicine
Finland Takes Another Look at Youth Gender Medicine.

Turning to the question of suicide, which has become virtually the only argument that “gender affirming” activists make in support of their preferred practice, Kaltiala did not pull her punches. The popular “transition or suicide” narrative used by activists to push back against state reform efforts is, in Kaltiala’s words, “purposeful disinformation, and spreading it is irresponsible.”

Much of the public confusion about the suicide issue stems from a simple correlation-causation fallacy. While there is evidence that teenagers who identify as transgender have elevated rates of suicide and suicidality (a behavior that, researchers emphasize, often involved thoughts of suicide or nonfatal self-harming gestures and should not to be confused with actual suicide or serious attempts to end one’s life), there is no evidence that their elevated risk is because of unaffirmed gender identity or that social and medical transition will reduce their risk for self-harm. Studies purporting to find that hormones reduce suicidality are typically designed in such a way that valid inferences about cause and effect cannot be drawn. Considering that roughly three-quarters of teenagers who present to gender clinics these days have preexisting mental health conditions like depression and autism, which are themselves risk factors for suicidality, it is probably more accurate to say that teenagers with suicidal inclinations are more likely to gravitate toward a trans identity.

Thankfully, moreover, suicide is extremely rare even among transgender-identified youth. There was no epidemic of suicides among gender-distressed teenagers before “gender affirming” hormones became available roughly 15 years ago. A study from the U.K. found that the suicide rate among minors seeking medical transition between 2010 and 2020 was 0.03%—nothing close to the 41% risk commonly cited by American activists. Suicide, according to Helsingin Sanomat, was a “very rare occurrence in about ten years among young people seeking gender identity diagnoses. On the other hand, in a large Swedish study, suicide mortality had clearly increased among adults who had received gender reassignment treatments.” For Kaltiala, “it is not justified to tell the parents of young people identifying as transgender that a young person is at risk of suicide without medical treatments and that the danger can be alleviated with gender reassignment.”

Indeed, the suicide discourse that has come to dominate gender transition activism may itself contribute more to youth self-harm than the bans on hormones and surgeries currently being passed in U.S. states. As Alison Clayton has argued in a peer-reviewed paper, “an excessive focus on an exaggerated suicide risk narrative by clinicians and the media may create a damaging nocebo effect (... “self-fulfilling prophecy” ...) whereby suicidality in these vulnerable youths may be further exacerbated.” Tell kids that being suicidal is inherent to being transgender and that only hormones will solve their problem, and many may indeed become suicidal. The “affirm or suicide” discourse also runs counter to the recommendations of the Centers for Disease Control, which emphasizes that “[s]uicide is never the result of a single factor or event” and warns against “presenting simplistic explanations for suicide.” It’s hard to think of a better example of “simplistic explanations” than “trans kids kill themselves when not given hormones.”

Why the obsessive emphasis on the suicide issue? The obvious reason is that if suicide is the expected outcome, any risk from hormones and surgeries is probably worth it. The suicide discourse has the effect, and probably also the intent, of preventing patients and clinicians from doing a careful weighing of pros and cons when deciding on treatment options. It strikes fear into the hearts of parents who worry about the risks and uncertainties about blocking their children’s natural puberty, pumping them full of synthetic hormones, and amputating their healthy breasts as early as age 13. It is also a powerful tool for silencing critics and—crucially—deterring those who have questions about hormonal interventions from raising them in the first place.

Kaltiala thinks that the suicide discourse is being pushed by “adults who have themselves benefited from gender reassignment, have a desire to go out and save children and young children. But they lack understanding that a child is not a small adult.” Activists are driven by a combination of motives including misguided empathy, a savior complex, and projection.

Edited

Louis Appleby has also been robust on this - I imagine Streeting will listen to him over 'activists' who reprehensibly push that dangerous, damaging, and false narrative.

Its possible to forgive teenagers who make cardboard coffins to leave at Streetings door, because they are children.

I would find it very hard to forgive adults who contribute to these stories. The damage they've done, not just to children pushed into unnecessary and irreversible treatments, but to families terrorised by threats of suicide, and society, is grave.

ArabellaSaurus · 13/12/2025 07:59

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/12/2025 14:30

The Mail reporting on Streeting's unease about the trial. He also talks about the threats and violence to property he and his staff are receiving from extreme transactivists. Hope he shares that information with some of his clueless colleagues:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15378163/Wes-Streeting-says-hes-not-comfortable-puberty-blockers-trial-claims-threatening-trans-activists-attacked-office-three-times.html

Promising.

ArabellaSaurus · 13/12/2025 08:03

How strange that violence and abusive threats are not persuasive of the arguments.

'Speaking to LBC radio on Friday, the Health Secretary said the Cass Review uncovered 'utterly shocking levels of unprofessionalism, lack of proper clinical oversight and the prescription of puberty blockers without evidence'.'

Yes, Wes. And the same people are the ones trying to convince you the trial is well designed.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 13/12/2025 08:25

ArabellaSaurus · 13/12/2025 08:03

How strange that violence and abusive threats are not persuasive of the arguments.

'Speaking to LBC radio on Friday, the Health Secretary said the Cass Review uncovered 'utterly shocking levels of unprofessionalism, lack of proper clinical oversight and the prescription of puberty blockers without evidence'.'

Yes, Wes. And the same people are the ones trying to convince you the trial is well designed.

This. Join the dots for pete's sake, the establishment has to get over this idea that 'trans' means 'turn your brain off and do what you're told, anything with the word 'trans' = good', and use the same equality of critical thinking they would about anything else.

But he is working hard on personally distancing himself in the public eye. Which is interesting. Because if it goes ahead, having been responsible but said 'I don't think it's right personally to do this dodgy experiment on children, but go on then' will not make it any better for him in the end. And nor should it.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.