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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 8

1000 replies

ThreeWordHarpy · 11/11/2025 11:44

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov; RH (day 10), SW (day 11)
Thread 7, 05-Nov to 11-Nov; SW (day 11), closing submissions

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence now complete. Submissions are being made on November 11th. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
NebulousSupportPostcard · 11/11/2025 20:46

Forgetsheepcountducklings · 11/11/2025 19:52

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly4wnkvy9jo

Couldn't bring themselves to use an accurate picture of Rose though, it's so blurry.

The photo of Rose looks pink and very soft focus 😂

StandbyLight · 11/11/2025 21:04

NebulousSupportPostcard · 11/11/2025 20:46

The photo of Rose looks pink and very soft focus 😂

It actually looks like they took it through a hedge on an old smashed phone.

You'd have thought even with all its woes they could use a professional photographer.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 11/11/2025 21:24

It could be a video still, if BBC didn't actually send a photographer to court? It was BBC that asked for copies of witness statements I think, rather than attend court.

Sometimes a week really is a long time in politics!

CarefulN0w · 11/11/2025 21:35

I just opened the BBC article so that my click could be counted. How interesting to see other articles on the case below from previous days, if I didn’t know better, I might believe the BBC really had been all over this story from the beginning.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 11/11/2025 21:42

CarefulN0w · 11/11/2025 21:35

I just opened the BBC article so that my click could be counted. How interesting to see other articles on the case below from previous days, if I didn’t know better, I might believe the BBC really had been all over this story from the beginning.

They're all in local news for Tees though, so they've been covering it, just not as national news.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 11/11/2025 21:44

Bigly thanks to TT and all the c&pers through this, I wish I could have been there!

SexRealistic · 11/11/2025 21:49

NebulousSupportPostcard · 11/11/2025 20:46

The photo of Rose looks pink and very soft focus 😂

Ridiculous - same as Upton.

I'm minded to complain - they seem a bit more sensetive you know to actual feedback this week for some reason.

There were better photos in the bundle or from their video that they have access to.

Harassedevictee · 11/11/2025 22:21

The BBC News report is a real change of language. I hate to say it but editing Trump has obviously had a positive impact by nudging the BBC back to being even handed,

Gassylady · 11/11/2025 22:22

OMG it is one the main BBC news tonight. Nice but short clip interviewing some of the claimants and a clip of Henderson getting into the car. Amazing

StElwicksNeighbourhoodAssociation · 11/11/2025 22:27

A very clear video of Rose getting into a car accompanied by narrative of denying walking around the changing room in boxer shorts just for added effect.
Have the BBC sacked the LGBTQ+ desk?

KittyWilkinson · 11/11/2025 22:28

I saw it too Gassy. Proper reporting. They even said that Henderson was a biological male and mentioned boxer shorts.
What a surprise, facts being reported!

SixthWorstOption · 11/11/2025 22:37

I heard the piece on the R4 6pm news which included the interview with the nurses. Sunlight!

Edited to say thank you, as always, for the Tribunal Tweeters, MN C&P'ers and commentators. I'm generally a lurker on these threads but pop up occasionally (under various names). I'm sure that for every poster who posts, there are many, many more that are silently reading and nodding along, and hopefully getting a bit braver to come out in the open IRL and have discussions. I know whenever I've tested the water on this topic I've found I've been pushing on an open door. I really do hope that the tide is turning.

WallaceinAnderland · 11/11/2025 22:37

Willoughby is not happy with the BBC reporting this case 😂

'Just horrendous. You fucking bastards. Zero regards for the dignity of this woman. What does this achieve, you bunch of cunts? The sort of coverage that kills people. Treating her like dog shit. Fuck you one-thousand times over.'

Datun · 11/11/2025 22:41

WallaceinAnderland · 11/11/2025 22:37

Willoughby is not happy with the BBC reporting this case 😂

'Just horrendous. You fucking bastards. Zero regards for the dignity of this woman. What does this achieve, you bunch of cunts? The sort of coverage that kills people. Treating her like dog shit. Fuck you one-thousand times over.'

Oh dear. I wonder if he's got some inside gen about the BBC LGBTQ censor panel being roundly stymied.

He's spitting far too many nails for that just to be a normal reaction to a spot of honest reporting.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 11/11/2025 22:42

Gymnopedie · 11/11/2025 16:22

It's an interesting point. There was never a formally adopted policy that transwomen are allowed to use the female CR (possibly because even the incompetent managers knew that would be a step too far in law).

If the line is going to be that it is therefore not the policy of the trust but of individuals does that really stand up? Those senior managers - all captured by TWAW - are employed by the trust and in everything they do they are acting as agents for and on behalf of the trust. So if their individual policies are that TWAW and that Rose has every right to be in the CR, doesn't that become the de facto policy and purpose of the trust?

There was never a formally adopted policy that transwomen are allowed to use the female CR (possibly because even the incompetent managers knew that would be a step too far in law).

On the contrary, the Trust first adopted a "Transitioning in the Workplace Policy" in February 2019.

10.2 Appendix 2 – A Guide for Managers & Employees

Any person transitioning needs to be certain that their employer is committed to and supportive of their needs. Managers therefore need to make it clear that in the event of an employee transitioning, measures are in place to facilitate this and ensure they are committed to engage with, and support, the employee at all stages. The needs of transitioning colleagues will be personal to each individual, Trust employees who transition will be fully supported by their line manager who will work with them to understand their specific needs to ensure a successful workplace transition. Issues, which may be considered by the individual and the manager, include: . . .

  • Agreeing the point at which the individual will commence using gender neutral /single sex facilities in their affirmed gender, for example toilets and changing areas. This should occur from the time that the employee wishes this to start as some staff members may prefer to continue to use the same facilities as they used to in the early stages of transition. They are legally allowed to use any toilet facility they prefer and the choice should be theirs.

Use of Single Sex Facilities

An area of consideration can be the use of gender specific toilets and wash room/shower facilities.

Good practice indicates that facilities such as toilets and changing rooms should be accessed according to the employee in their gender role. Since this is an area which can cause concern for employers and other employees, it may be helpful to think of this in terms of a Trans woman being a woman and the Trust allows all women to use women’s facilities. The same principle may be applied to Trans men.

The Trust supports non binary employees to use any facility which is most appropriate to them.

Accessible toilets may be provided as an alternative for any person, whether Trans or not, who does not wish to share with others. If someone does not wish to share a toilet with a Trans person, then it is they, not the Trans person, who must seek other facilities.

10.4 Appendix 4 – Frequently asked Questions

Employee – an individual wishing to transition whilst working for CDDFT

Q – Will I be able to use the facilities-toilets and changing rooms which match my gender identity?

A - Yes, you may also use accessible toilets if you prefer.

Nov 2021 Version 2 ratified following a "Full Review":

Significantly, the only change to the above paragraphs is that the subheading "Use of Single Sex Facilities" was changed to "Use of Gender Specific Facilities"

Version 2 was due to "Expire" and to have been Reviewed by Nov 2024.

However, In Nov 2024 the Expiration date was extended to Feb 2025

24 March 2025 Version 3 ratified following a "Full Review"

Brief Description of revisions made

Draft Updated following Rainbow Badge Assessment and to bring it in line with the Regionally agreed best practice template. In addition to include reference to Resolution Procedure where gender critical views are expressed over use of facilities and to incorporate amendments suggested by Trust solicitors.

Some relevant changes:

5.8 Changing and Showering and Toilet Facilities

Where possible, trans and non-binary staff should be supported to use facilities that align to their affirmed gender, if it is their choice to do so.

A trans or non-binary person should not be forced to use accessible gender neutral facilities, but can choose to if they would feel more comfortable doing so.
Any concerns raised by others will be dealt with promptly and sensitively and harassment of the trans, non-binary or person raising the concern will not be tolerated.

Where there is objection from other staff about trans or non-binary staff using single sex changing, showering or toilet facilities due to their religion or belief, careful consideration of balancing the rights under the Equality Act 2010 of both sides must be taken into account by the manager that does not favour one side or the other.

Where possible all options should be considered and alternative arrangements should be made, however where a mutually agreeable solution cannot be informally reached, this should be referred to the Resolution Policy or Dignity at Work Policy – whichever is most relevant to the situation.

9.3 Appendix 3 – Frequently asked Questions
Staff member – an individual wishing to transition whilst working for the Trust

Q – Will I be able to use the facilities, toilets and changing rooms which match my gender identity?

A - Yes, you may also use accessible toilets if you prefer. You can discuss and agree this with your manager as part of your Support Plan, including how others will be consulted about these arrangements.

Version 3 was due to Expire in March 2028.

All these versions can be downloaded here:

Provision Single Sex Spaces
Freedom of Information request to County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/provision_single_sex_spaces#incoming-3046098

I understand from evidence given in the Tribunal that Version 3 was withdrawn about a month later in April 2025, following the Supreme Court Ruling in For Women Scotland v The Scottish Ministers:

https://supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042

However, I find it odd that it was stated in Court that this means that the Trust has had no policy covering the issues in "Transitioning in the Workplace" Version 3 since April 2025.

Employers normally have a "Status Quo Agreement" with Trade Unions. What this means is that nothing changes until a new agreement is made. Employers do not withdraw Policies and Procedures in the expectation that there will be anarchy until new ones are agreed.

The only options that make sense are that either:

  • CDDFT Management intended that Version 3 would continue to be applied until it was re-ratified or a revised policy was issued or
  • it intended that the Policy would revert to Version 2 for such time.

If instead it intended that Managers and HR would just make things up as they went along then that is the new Policy, whether it is written down or not.

I was hoping that CDDFT Managers and HR would be asked to explain what the situation has been since April 2025 and what they would expect Staff, Managers and HR to do.

Finally, there seems to have been a loophole in all versions of the Policy that was exposed by the circumstances of Rose/Tyler Henderson's employment with the Trust. The Policy deals with existing employees who decide to "transition" after then have taken up employment with the Trust.

I am sure that more than one Management witness explained that RH had not "been through the policy" because he was first on Trust premises as a student and his "transitioning" at that time was dealt with by the University of Teesside.

RH started in employment with CDDFT some time in 2019. The first version of the policy was ratified in February 2019. His Manager, Tracy Wainwright, said that there was no need to invoke the "Transitioning at Work Policy" because she had known RH while he was at University of Teesside and they had dealt with everything. Whatever "everything" was.

Students on placement still seem to have been excluded from the Policy although Version 3 is more comprehensive than previous versions.

Version 3
3 Scope

This policy applies to:

  • all employees, officers, consultants, self-employed contractors, casual workers, agency workers, volunteers and interns.
  • persons who, although not employed by The Trust, have authorised access to the Internet through the equipment owned or managed by The Trust. This includes staff working for any affiliated organisations.

The ‘CDDFT Group’ includes CDDFT and its wholly owned subsidiary; County Durham and Darlington NHS Services (CDD NHS Services). Any reference to the ‘Trust’ shall be interpreted as a reference to the Trust Group.

This policy does not form part of any contract of employment or other contract to provide services and we may amend it at any time.

(Apologies for wall of text!)

SexRealistic · 11/11/2025 22:44

WallaceinAnderland · 11/11/2025 22:37

Willoughby is not happy with the BBC reporting this case 😂

'Just horrendous. You fucking bastards. Zero regards for the dignity of this woman. What does this achieve, you bunch of cunts? The sort of coverage that kills people. Treating her like dog shit. Fuck you one-thousand times over.'

I just came to say that.

I mean they just had some footage of Rose walking around outside court.

It’s not like he stripped down to his holey boxers

"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 8
Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/11/2025 22:47

WallaceinAnderland · 11/11/2025 22:37

Willoughby is not happy with the BBC reporting this case 😂

'Just horrendous. You fucking bastards. Zero regards for the dignity of this woman. What does this achieve, you bunch of cunts? The sort of coverage that kills people. Treating her like dog shit. Fuck you one-thousand times over.'

#SadTimes

NotNatacha · 11/11/2025 23:00
  • 2 April: Employment Judge Stuart Robertson adjourns the nurses’ case to October, saying if the Trust does not now comply with proceedings, “it does so at its peril”.
  • 3 April: The Director of Workforce at the Trust re-published the ‘Transitioning in the Workplace Policy’, reiterating that a biological man can use the women’s changing rooms.

From the Christian Concern website kindly linked by @misscockerspaniel at 17:44 today.

MyrtleLion · 11/11/2025 23:43

WallaceinAnderland · 11/11/2025 22:37

Willoughby is not happy with the BBC reporting this case 😂

'Just horrendous. You fucking bastards. Zero regards for the dignity of this woman. What does this achieve, you bunch of cunts? The sort of coverage that kills people. Treating her like dog shit. Fuck you one-thousand times over.'

Finally letting the daylight in.

Sunlight is disinfectant.

Let trans people speak because they show their true colours.

Watching the report on the 10 o'clock news I felt we might get our BBC back. It was authoritative, clear and respectful of everyone involved.

GallantKumquat · 11/11/2025 23:55

WallaceinAnderland · 11/11/2025 22:37

Willoughby is not happy with the BBC reporting this case 😂

'Just horrendous. You fucking bastards. Zero regards for the dignity of this woman. What does this achieve, you bunch of cunts? The sort of coverage that kills people. Treating her like dog shit. Fuck you one-thousand times over.'

Killing people kills people. 🙄 Reporting a story factually, even if it isn't couched in the euphemisms and outright obfuscations that you've become accustomed, does not kill people.

lcakethereforeIam · 12/11/2025 00:08

MoistVonL · 11/11/2025 18:22

Silly point, but it's hoist by your own petard. A petard is a small bomb, so it means you blow yourself into the air with your own explosive weapon. Not something you can hang yourself with.

I read entirely too many Sharpe books and other books set during wars.

I did know about hoist, I'm actually ashamed. I think I was in the middle of changing my metaphor when a timer went off in the kitchen. I did not know about what a petard was. I vaguely thought it was a small flag. 💣 ✅️ I'll know better in future.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/11/2025 00:20

'Hoist' does seem to have more in common with hanging than exploding, tbf!

Also, I resisted lowering the tone earlier but since we are here again, can I say all I could think of was that petard comes from the verb 'peter' to fart, which is what blokes in holey underwear seem most likely to do as they stroll around the changing room in their pants. Thank god he is strolling around his very own CR as of now. 😂

Enough4me · 12/11/2025 00:41

Moving forwards, could the man FKA Tyler use one of the HR offices to flash his boxers change?
They would surely welcome him and take some of their clothes off to play the validating game.

I'm still struggling to understand why the Trust didn't look for a more appropriate option for the man with additional wants. Even if all the nurses regularly working on the same area as him had been happy to share a CR, new or temporary staff women may not. It's a no-brainer that a woman at some point in that area may expect the CR to be SS [reality likely to be 100%]. Maybe I expect too much when referencing brains...

WallaceinAnderland · 12/11/2025 01:49

OMG all my life I have honestly thought that a petard was a leotard for men, and hoisted meant some kind of wedgie 😳

"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 8
QuietlyWonderful · 12/11/2025 01:52

NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/11/2025 00:20

'Hoist' does seem to have more in common with hanging than exploding, tbf!

Also, I resisted lowering the tone earlier but since we are here again, can I say all I could think of was that petard comes from the verb 'peter' to fart, which is what blokes in holey underwear seem most likely to do as they stroll around the changing room in their pants. Thank god he is strolling around his very own CR as of now. 😂

Some older Mumsnetters may recall Le Pétomane, a film starring Leonard Rossiter, which was based on the life ofJoseph Pujol, a 19th C. French Flatulist (now there's a job title for you).

Pujol performed at the Moulin Rouge. He was able to fart at will and 'play' tunes, but his career ended because he began to lose control of certain essential muscles during performances - you can imagine the consequences.

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