Survey on culture in the UK - 'trans rights' questions

[ArabellaSaurus]

New survey

19% of people say 'trans rights have not gone far enough' in the UK.
39% say 'trans rights have gone too far'.

That's a really big change in the past five years.

'The proportion who say transgender rights have gone too far in the UK has more than doubled since 2020, from 17% to 39%, though overall there is still no public consensus on the issue, with 19% now saying transgender rights have not gone far enough, 27% saying they’ve gone as far as they should, and a further 15% not giving an opinion.
The proportion of people who say transgender rights have gone too far has doubled among all age groups – even 16-24s, where one in five (19%) now feel this way, compared with around one in 10 (9%) in 2020. However, young people are still more likely to say transgender rights have not gone far enough (36%).'

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uks-sense-division-reaches-new-high-culture-war-tensions-grow-study-finds

Article:

https://unherd.com/newsroom/growing-number-of-britons-think-trans-rights-have-gone-too-far/

I'd be really interested to find out @Gnasher1981 main news source.

Thank you for answering.

My opinions come after my lack of belief. My lack of belief (i.e. I don't believe that everyone has a gender identity) is far more fundamental than just an opinion.

Owing to my lack of belief I have opinions such as "transwomen are not women", "TW don't belong in women's sports and changing rooms because they are not women" and so on. I also have opinions that encompass a different viewpoint e.g. I think it would be helpful to have third space options in addition to single-sex spaces for anyone who holds a belief in gender identity and doesn't feel comfortable going to the one that is designated for their sex.

There are many articles agreeing that trans is a real thing; just because you and I don't understand it that doesn't mean it's not real/genuine.

I do understand it. I took a long time looking at lots of different viewpoints and published information to come to my understanding. My understanding is what led to my realisation that I don't believe that everyone has a gender identity.

I'll equate all of that with my belief in ghosts. I believe that ghosts exist. However, my opinions take into account the fact that not everyone else shares my belief. So, for example, I don't expect people to enter into dialogue with my late mum just because I believe she would hear them if they did. Thankfully Christians don't impose their belief on me - although some have told me that god is ready for me to accept him into my heart whenever I am ready for him. This is similar to your statement above that (according to your belief values) I am yet to understand gender identity.

By contrast, gender identity believers are constantly trying to force me to say that I hold their beliefs e.g. telling me what pronouns are "correct" and that I need to accept TW in women's sports and spaces.

It doesn't affect me at all, other than being sad at the abuse another marginalized groups receives.

It wasn't that long ago women were fighting for the right to vote and have bodily autonomy because a lot of men thought women were incapable and found the very idea offensive.

And now women's ability to define themselves as adult human females with their own needs that are particular to their experiences as a sex class eg periods, pregnancy, menopause is being handed over to men performing female stereotypes because why exactly? Oh that's right the men might be sad 🤦🏻‍♀️

So you believe TWAW except when they're rapists (and therefore hellhounds) or are helping victims of sexual abuse (in which case you acknowledge that only women and not transwomen should be involved). How have you not realised the logical fallacy of your beliefs yet?

@Gnasher1981

"If a trans woman tells me they are a woman i will accept it."

I am a giraffe. I am also the King of England. Kindly bow.

I disagree, accepting trans peoples rights in no way affects your rights.

There are many cis woman who don't have periods or can't get pregnant, etc, and they don't affect you either. We are all individual.

Also you can say that your viewpoint here isn't "anti trans" but do you realise that trans activists will say you are transphobic for saying this. If TWAW they should have equal rights to work in women's rape centres as "other" women.

I wouldn't bow for the actual king, so you can take a running jump lol

I agree, I also debate with pro trans groups as i feel there needs to be a middle ground which reflects all victims of abuse.

Placing men in womens prisons affects the rights of women prisoners

But what we are referring to 'trans people' is an ideological construct. We are all either male or female, and some, for whatever reason, feel the need or desire to present as the opposite sex. Some may go to extreme lengths to modify their body. They may well imagine themselves to be the opposite sex.

But they aren't!

That's it!

People who adopt such an 'identity' have the same legal and civil rights as everyone else, and some are protected under the category of 'gender -re-asignment'.

Allowing TW into women's single sex spaces affects women's rights. It affects women's rights to privacy, dignity and safety against male bodied-people (even if you believe those men have magical pink flavoured brains).

It particularly affects the rights of vulnerable women in prisons (who have been raped and sexually assaulted by TW in prisons), hospitals (a woman was raped by TW in UK women's hospital ward and the NHS tried to cover it up until the CCTV proof was found), women's refuges, toilets, changing rooms etc. It also particularly affects women of different cultures and religions for whom it is prohibited to be in any state of undress in front of a male.

The TW you know may be lovely. Most men i know are lovely. But that doesnt mean that all men should be allowed into women's single sex spaces.

Absolute nonsense! My right to a single sex space ie a space for biological women is 100% affected if trans women ie men are allowed in too because they are women. It's no longer a single sex space it's a mixed space.

and as an infertile woman can you please not weaponise women's infertility in support of your ideology.

and stop with the cis bollocks

Thank you for posting the link to the article. It is a difficult article to read and understand because it uses specific parameters to describe what the study mentioned is looking at. A brain scanner was "trained" to identify certain features in males and females who did not have any major depression. It was looking at measurable changes in two areas of the brain called the putamen and the insula, "such as local volume and cortical thickness decreases [15, 20]. However, longitudinal studies are scarce and a recent large study did not find any differences between TW-pre and post-CHT (cross-hormone treatment)" (Flint, Forster et al (2020) open article, Nature)

So the study involved scanning brains, measuring particular sections of the brain, comparing whether the brains appear to be different between males and females, and then comparing whether people who had had cross sex hormones showed changes in alignment with their preferred gender.
"longitudinal studies are scarce" means that there is hardly any research in this area, because it is difficult to find both a suitable bit of the brain to study and a number of subjects who are willing to be studied over a number of years. I have seen a previous reference to a study on the brain trying to demonstrate that male and female brains were substantially different and failing to prove it.
One of my issues with the above mentioned study is that I am interested in neurological research and neuroscience, but not at the expense of recognising that the human being is a complete organism, and studying one part of that organism does not necessarily help you to understand any of the other parts.

In short, I do not agree that the study mentioned above has shown that there is any significant difference between male and female brains or that there is any significant difference between pre-and post hormone treated trans identified people's brains. The methodology was too concrete (measuring the size of little tiny bits of the brain) and there are no other comparable studies.

Sorry, do you mean that you agree that TWAW and should be allowed to work in women's rape centres, or that not all TWAW and therefore TW should not be allowed to work in women's rape centres? I'm not sure which position you're agreeing with here.

'Trans people' are either male or female...not some other third category of human being. Male people do not share in the protections which have been afforded to women and girls on the basis of their sex.

A single sex facility , service or category for female people is no longer single sex if it permits access to males. All females are potentially impacted if they cannot be guaranteed that a service or space which is designated as single sex is so.

Plus the use of terms such as 'Cis' infringe upon female integrity, turning all female people into a mere category of their own sex. This is not acceptable and can have many and various consequences, potentially, for all female people.

'Sex' is a biological category. A woman who is post menopause or who does not have children is still female. A male person is not female.

Do you seriously actually believe that trans women are actually women?

Or do you just believe saying they are makes you a better person?

Because if you genuinely think that there is no issue with men changing in female changing rooms, why do we have male and female changing rooms at all? In fact, why any changing rooms? Why don’t we all just strip off wherever we like in front of anyone?

You appear to be denying that I am the "actual" king.

The black/white analogy is often used, but far from being a killer argument, IMO just betrays that you have not thought about this beyond a very superficial level at all.

Whether a child is black or white does not change the basis on which they are a child, nor the purpose of a school as a place for children.

However, deciding it's the mind rather than the body that makes one "a woman", a prerequisite for including male people as women, fundamentally changes the nature of womanhood.

That not only imposes a new definition into all female people as well - either they also are women because of their minds, or they do not feel this commonalty of mind and therefore can no longer be considered women - it undermines the basis on which all pre-existing woman-only provisions rest.

Because these spaces and opportunities were created under the assumption that "woman/girl" and "female human" are the same thing and as much reflect the needs of those people. If that is no longer what "woman/girl" means, the reason the spaces existed in the first place no longer stands and what TRAs need to justify is not why male bodied trans women should be included, but why men and women's differences in "gender of the mind" should require single gender provision in the first place.

What hormone supplements?

Gnasher you are naive at best and talking cobblers at worst.
'Cis' is totally unnecessary
You say people would support TW in women's spaces- maybe because they dont understand? Many people think a transwoman is a woman identifying as a man!
Definitions are important

As for ' letting it happen' re TW in women's spaces- really? How many women losing dignity and safety is acceptable to you? We're not happy to be collateral damage to satisfy men.
It's not a belief system to state biological sex is immutable; it is scientific fact.
Honestly you'd think the Supreme Court ruling had never happened.

Gnasher - you need to do more reading especially around toilets if you think a gap at the bottom of the door isn't necessary. I've been involved in an incident where we only knew our friend had collapsed due to such a gap. The gap at the top of the door enabled us to climb in and administer aid. If it had been floor-to-ceiling she might have been seriously ill- or dead.

@Gnasher1981 are you sure you’ve been involved in this discussion for forty years? Seems unlikely, given how poor your arguments are.

Ughhh, don't use black children in white schools as a shield for your arguments. I actually find it highly, highly offensive as a black woman, when TRAs try to paint their "plight" as analogous to that of historically marginalised racial groups (I've seen the same argument directed towards the horrors that Jews faced during the Holocaust), when in fact, their "plight", is simply being confronted with the reality that a woman is an adult human of the female, NOT male, sex class.