Survey on culture in the UK - 'trans rights' questions

[ArabellaSaurus]

New survey

19% of people say 'trans rights have not gone far enough' in the UK.
39% say 'trans rights have gone too far'.

That's a really big change in the past five years.

'The proportion who say transgender rights have gone too far in the UK has more than doubled since 2020, from 17% to 39%, though overall there is still no public consensus on the issue, with 19% now saying transgender rights have not gone far enough, 27% saying they’ve gone as far as they should, and a further 15% not giving an opinion.
The proportion of people who say transgender rights have gone too far has doubled among all age groups – even 16-24s, where one in five (19%) now feel this way, compared with around one in 10 (9%) in 2020. However, young people are still more likely to say transgender rights have not gone far enough (36%).'

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uks-sense-division-reaches-new-high-culture-war-tensions-grow-study-finds

Article:

https://unherd.com/newsroom/growing-number-of-britons-think-trans-rights-have-gone-too-far/

Trans women are "women" only because you changed the meaning of a word. It didn't change reality one iota.

In reality, trans women have nothing more in common with female bodied people when they are called "women" than they did when they were called men.

So the only meaningful questions here are:

.1. Regardless of which group of peple the word "women" currently points to, do female people have a history of marginalisation that was specific to their sex and even today have significant experiences, need, risks or challenges that are different to male people?

.2. Do they therefore have a moral right to differentiate themselves from male people, to speak of female-only experiences, to organise politically to promote female-only protections and rights, and to organise socially for female-only spaces and opportunities?

As a feminist, I believe the answer to both questions is yes.

So regardless of what one believes the word "woman" to mean, I cannot see any moral justification for this social and political project to prevent female people from speaking and organising in our own right.

Either trans women are women, in which case being female bodied is something else, and that means trans women's needs, rights and experiences as "women" are totally irrelevant to being female and have no business being included in the consideration of what female people may need at all,

Or trans women are not women, in which case they have no business being included in women's spaces, rights and protections, or to take women's resources and women's language.

Either way there is no honest argument whatsoever that can ever lead to the conclusion that trans women have a moral right to appropriate the language, rights and protections of the female bodied half of humanity, because whatever it is they may in reality be, it is never going to be the same thing as natally female bodied.

And if you stopped only worrying about whether is fair to cause possible distress to trans women and also considered whether it is fair to take from female people, you would see this as well.

???? Please read my post again. It’s about keeping everyone safe with the safest design. Why would trans people be more likely to ‘transmit pathogens’? That’s bizarre.

Unisex toilets have more pathogens in them for many reasons. This is one such study:
https://salus.global/article-show/pathogen-findings-raise-concerns-about-move-to-unisex-hospital-facilities

It is not great that a women is in the men’s cleaning alone, but it is a necessity to keep toilets clean. Women cleaners do feel vulnerable and there have been incidents. It’s best the designs are as open as possibly without affecting too much privacy.

lol about hair! I had to go back to check and you are right. I am sure I wrote hands! Although I have washed my hair in a sink (child vomited in it) I agree that’s niche! The point is the queues are longer because average time in a toilet room is longer. There is evidence that many women will avoid unisex toilets so they become male toilets by default.

I have attached a picture to show why you need gaps in toilet doors. I saved someone’s life because of one. If you research, you will find people end up being left in toilets for days without one. I have lots of research.
Statistics: 11% of cardiac arrests happen whilst on the loo. There is a heart attack every five minutes in this country. There is a stroke every five minutes in this country. Millions of people have heart conditions, diabetes, epilepsy. Where do you rush to when you are out and about and feel ill?

If a trans woman tells me they are a woman i will accept it.
If they want to to join women's sports then they need to have the hormone supplements.

If they want hormone supplements they need to wait until they are old enough to do so.
If they want surgery they need to wait until they are old enough to do so.

If a female person tells you that because of the history of oppression, marginalisation and sexualisation of people wth female bodies, we need spaces or opportunities that are female only, do you accept that?

If not, why not? What do trans women's needs have to do with the neefs of female people?

If they are a woman, and being a woman has nothing to do with having a female body, why do they need hormones?

Could you provide scientific examples from an anti trans perspective?

Every single human on the planet was born from a woman, using sperm from a male.

Two sexes. That's it buddy.

If a trans woman tells me they are a woman i will accept it.
If they want to to join women's sports then they need to have the hormone supplements.

If they want hormone supplements they need to wait until they are old enough to do so.
If they want surgery they need to wait until they are old enough to do so.

There is a difference between sex and gender.

Yes, we know. You can't change sex.

@Gnasher1981
You are far more likely, statistically, to be SA by a cis man than a trans woman if either one was alone with you.

If the situation, statistically, were the reverse of this would it shift your view?

Does that work for other things, like race, age or disability?

If I tell the world that I am of state pension age, the DWP won't just accept that. If I tell the world that I am a ten year old child, I won't get access to the local primary school. It's likely that I potentially could join a sports club such as wheelchair basketball, but it would cause problems in the event of competing, as I wouldn't reach any of the necessary criteria.

The matter of race is even trickier, it's not as clear cut as sex.

I'm hoping you will be able to help me understand here.

Apparently there is a man in his 50s in this photo of a girl's basketball team. I just can't work it out. Can you help?

TL:DR It's a quasi-religious belief shared by fewer than 20% of us, so no point trying to argue them out of it.

This ⬆️

@Gnasher1981 please can you answer my question from earlier about whether you would support my lack of belief in the idea that everyone has a gender identity - and what this means in practical terms for things like changing rooms.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your belief. I'm simply asking that you and other believers don't try and force me to hold it too.

Very much so.

So why is trans women's gender being used as an argument for including them in spaces, rights, provisions and language that exist based on sex?

If you stop and think about it, all the women-only things we have exist because of our sex. Either direct physical differences, or to mitigate social risks and disadvanatages we face from individual and structural sexism.

And because sex, as you say, is not gender, there really is no meaningful basis for the demand to include trans women in "women's" rights at all.

Why do you think sports should be segregated by gender rather than sex?

Is sex or gender more relevant to physical sporting ability?

If a trans woman tells me they are a woman i will accept It

you do you but you have no right to expect or force other people to go along with it because it's a lie

trans women are trans women or more bluntly men

This is a difficult one to answer. You are entitled to your opinion, I can't change that.
I have asked many women how they feel about trans women in female changing rooms and, mostly, they support it.
There are many articles agreeing that trans is a real thing; just because you and I don't understand it that doesn't mean it's not real/genuine.
Much like allowing black children into white schools, until it happens there will always be those who think it bad and harmful.
The only way forward, in my opinion, is to let it happen, then the world will see there is nothing wrong with trans women in female changing rooms.

This is a difficult one to answer. You are entitled to your opinion, I can't change that.
I have asked many women how they feel about trans women in female changing rooms and, mostly, they support it.
There are many articles agreeing that trans is a real thing; just because you and I don't understand it that doesn't mean it's not real/genuine.
Much like allowing black children into white schools, until it happens there will always be those who think it bad and harmful.
The only way forward, in my opinion, is to let it happen, then the world will see there is nothing wrong with trans women in female changing rooms.

Yes.
There are a few areas of public life where separate provision is needed on the basis of sex.

I can’t think of a single one where there’s a rational reason to separate by ‘gender’. How could there be, given that people may have nonbinary or fluid genders?

I am not forcing anyone to do anything, I would say you are denying people their right to be who they identify as due to you not understanding.
Other than existing, how does a trans woman affect you?

your sampling seems to be skewed.

you don’t have the right to consent to other women’s rights being violated.

And against the wishes of many women, societies have in the last few years allowed male incursion into women’s spaces, and we’ve seen some of the results. If you don’t know what I’m referring to then you’re reading very selectively.

They can be what they identify as - a male with a feminine identity. They can’t be a woman because it’s impossible to change sex.

There are of course transwomen who know they’re male and don’t pretend otherwise. They know they’re transwomen, not women. How, materially, do they differ from the transwomen you insist are women?

Noone is saying that trans identifying people don't exist.

We're saying that, because noone can change sex, in circumstances where sex matters like sports and changing rooms, trans identifying males need to participate within their sex class.

You are advocating forcing females to accept male-bodied persons into their sex class on the basis of their gender feelings.

redefining women away from meaning 'adult human female' and to mean 'adult human female and men who perform sexist female stereotypes' affects every woman on
this planet. How can we accurately record data on anything categorised as woman when it also includes "oh and some men"

I find the idea that the whole experience of being a woman can be reduced to a bunch of sexist stereotypes that a man can perform and somehow be seen as a woman seriously fucking offensive frankly

And back at you - how does it affect you that TW are accurately described as men and categorised as men however well they may be performing their stereotypical view of women?

Two things:

1. Black children and white children in schools are a completely separate social issue, and not at all analogous to men and women.
2. How many women are you willing to sacrifice to the alter of trans identifying men before your social experiment shows that there is a danger to women?

Of course, point 2 only relates to the actual safety elements, but there are also matters of privacy and dignity that are important to consider too.