Is it not possible to have "trans rights" and "women's rights" at the same time?

[Artmumcreative]

I suppose I just think debate is too polarised. I think the answer might be to have third spaces (e.g. a separate toilet a bit like a disabled toilet) for trans women, so they're safe and women are safe. I think it would be nice if women supported transpeople and transpeople supported women (e.g at a trans rights demo and a women's rights demo). Not all transwomen are rapists, just as not all men are.

But transwomen are male. There is no getting around that fact. And as male people they share in typical male pattern behaviours.

Only when it is acknowledged that people who adopt trans identities remain the sex they are can there by an real equality of rights. But even then, equality does not mean having the exact same protections.

People who adopt these identities already have the same civil and legal protections as all other people, and under current equality law have certain protections under the category of 'gender -re-assignment'.

We've got to stop saying TWAW. They are not. They are what they are. As are transmen. and we've got to stop using the trem 'cis'. It reduces women to a mere division of themselves. It is an act of colonisation, and as long as this continues there will never be any settlement, or peace.

Don’t forget the full stop after each word @NecessaryScene- Trans. Women. ARE. Women.

I would suggest you do a bit of research into what the issues really are @Artmumcreative.

I for one was totally convinced by the wide-eyed innocent BeKind opinion, as well as the perfect solution she proposes that not one single other person would ever have thought of.

For the full 2018 time travel experience, it needs to read
Trans.👏 women. 👏 are. 👏 women. 👏

Aw! It's making me all nostalgic! Those mantra days of yore.

Yes I’ve had visions of my granddaughters growing up in this brave new world and after becoming jaded and angry by the misogyny of gender neutral norm asking why ‘in the old days’ nobody had ever thought to give females a safe version of their own special facilities. They’d think these generations were dumb to have ever not thought of something so simple.

I genuinely wonder what people mean when they state this.

95+% of people I have met who used to say this were middle class professionals, secure in their positions in life and beliefs - e.g. my academic colleagues, or 'activists' of one kind or another. They did not, in fact, mean it literally. They did not. They meant it as a political statement: 'TW are not materially, objectively women, but our political desire that they be treated as if they were is best expressed with this kind of bold absolutism designed to shut down argument'. Some of those people saw it as politically strategic, the rest were following on, without all that much thought.

The other 5% were mostly young, often students, often diagnosed with ASD, confused, lied to by adults and genuinely believing that humans can change sex with medical interventions.

I assume some transpeople also believe this (only some, Eddie Izzard doesn't) but the world and the law can't be changed around a delusion. I'm not devoid of compassion, but it can't be. And anyone who keeps repeating TWAW has never spent any time considering women.

You’re correct TW are not all rapists, but they are all men.

The rules need to be simple and the rule is that if a space/provision has been designated as for women (the female kind) then no males can use it. Otherwise it becomes a case of which men do you allow in and how do you know they’re the right kind of man, and which women’s services can those right men use and which can’t they.

While on a personal basis it wouldn’t bother me too much to use a public toilet with a TW in the cubicle next to me, I can easily understand why this would be a problem for lots of women and I would not allow my female child to use the toilets if there was a male in there. There’s no way I’d be comfortable using a communal gym changing room and getting undressed with a male stranger, I also think there is no valid reason why a male should be using a women’s rape crisis service or domestic abuse shelter or prison cell or psychiatric ward, and the list goes on. How do you write any kind of sensible law that has that type of differentiation in it, and who would be happy with it?

Louder for the people at the back!

Confused would be one of the better words to use to describe the majority of the trans community.

Exactly.

Plus, this is the whole point. Trans people do have the same rights as women: they can build their own bog.

What they don't have is a special privilege to use other people's spaces. Women don't (usually) invade the gents, even when the ladies' queues are out the door and down the hall. College students don't take over children's football games. Heavyweight boxers don't suddenly show up at welterweight championships. Trans people can have their own spaces. Like everybody else. They can't have other groups' spaces. Like everybody else.

The simple answer would be 'fine, go use the third spaces so you're not using the facilities for your sex that you are so uncomfortable with, and the women who consent to join you and support you in this belief can come in there with you and you can all believe it together won't that be nice?'

That would actually mean equality of facility and resource for all, mutual respect for different beliefs, that the words 'inclusion' and 'kind' and 'diversity' and 'intersectionality' actually meant something instead of being code for 'woman submit and enable my manly self!'.

Do try that one on Reddit.

You're not allowed to not consent. If you have trauma - get over it. (the men don't have to, the men will be enabled in their feelings all day). If you're a lesbian, 'learn to cope' with straight sex, because the man feels entitled and you're just a woman, who are you to go looking for pleasure yourself or reciprocation, just provide the free sex work and learn to take it without a fuss. (I actually want to call a crisis team for someone dysfunctional enough to say that out loud and expect to be taken seriously, but it's been said many times. For real.) If you can't or won't submit to getting your kit off for men (look at the Darlington case at the moment, how the woman with childhood trauma was spoken to), it's your fault, and you don't deserve a space, you can just go without anything at all and serve you right for being subhuman scum.

You're never allowed to mention the fetish/porn/sexual aspects of this either, even though many women have the stories of their own experience and you can find plenty of sites where men are openly discussing it and enjoying discussing it with a large box of kleenex, often with pictures and videos.

As pp says:
trans equality of rights and no more
women's equality of rights and no less .

And that includes accessible spaces. Which means man free. End of.

😆😆😆

1 no women are rapists
2 there are loads of women at trans rights demos.
3 the transwomen at women’s rights demos are wearing balaclavas and making threats.

Everyone is fine with third spaces except trans people.

Ha ha ha, yes OP, please pop over there and suggest this! It can only go well! 😂

This thread IS giving off a very 2018 vibe, what with posters plopping in to say, "It's all too polarised", women should be kind and "support" trans people, and other people wandering in to tell us "transwomen are women" as if we've never ever heard that at any point in the last 10 chuffing years.

I'm almost nostalgic. Ah, simpler times.

@TheseWordsAreMine Transwomen are men. Hope that's cleared any ambiguity up for you.

So many new user names posting on this thread OP.

Thank you for giving so many new posters a place to voice their opinion.

Do you remember American lady who chanted it repeatedly at full volume for about 3 hours (I’m exaggerating slightly) in some sort of council meeting?

#sadtimes

Oh, and as for that "support", I'm with @Letthemeatgateau here.

Bollocks to "supporting", it's all women are ever expected to do and we're tired of it. Budge up. Include others. Put others first. Be KIND. Fuck that shit.

Maybe the male-born element of the trans community could support women for once by taking the time to educate themselves - a popular notion amongst that demographic, I believe - as to why we want women-only spaces, and stay the fuck out of them.

I remember this

I hadn't heard about that one.Talk about saying the quiet part out loud!

Here you go OP

https://www.tmz.com/watch/2025-11-04-110425-alexis-black-2147748-158/

This 'woman' explains why third spaces that are for all, including for those who have the philosophical belief that they are not the sex they materially are, or the belief that their gender identity is what should take priority, don't work. This is one of the standard answers : because then you need a space for male people with transgender identities and one for female people for transgender identities.

The 'third' space solution gets so twisted out of rationality that it becomes ridiculous. Of course the third space solution would be individual cubicles that catered for any one who wanted to use those spaces. But this type of answer given by this male person, is what you get when you ask the question.

This male person declared they were female recently, and started taking hormones. They have a criminal record. They somehow ended up having four encounters with Tish Hyman where she complained, across different gyms. How that has happened, I am yet to work out. Something seems very wrong if a woman can move to a different gym and encounter the same male person in the female changing room.

Can I suggest that you follow this particular incident? I expect that there will end up being some hard discussions.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5439179-so-men-have-more-rights-than-women-to-access-female-changing-rooms?reply=148329169

Mind you OP

Would you like to tell us from looking at this thread below how female people have 'polarised' the discussion?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?page=1

Is it that female people have polarised the discussion? Or is it that someone who has not thought about this with any depth is making female people feel shamed because they are somehow the problem by way of 'appearing polarised' that is the problem?

Perhaps you should read this board a bit before trying to intimate that women are the problem because we have 'polarised' discussion? You, personally, have suggested third spaces which is about a decade or more behind the first suggestions from feminists. Please, by all means, tell us how women have 'polarised' the discussion?

And what is the 'reasonable' accommodation for issues such as prisons, rape crisis centres and sports? Let's have your suggestions. Because you must have an idea other than 'third spaces' and 'it is all so polarised', otherwise, why post ?

I think that was Senator Machaela Cavanaugh who chanted mantras during a debate for almost two minutes, looking absolutely unhinged.

I believe she was filibustering against a bill designed to reduce 'gender affirming procedures' for those under the age of 19. And she was filibustering every debate. Even about unrelated issues. And acknowledged that she was stopping important bills from being discussed.

But yay mantras, right?

I watched that earlier. The absolute nonsense thinking that means they see no problem with intruding into female spaces as a male, but can’t tolerate the idea of a TW and a TM using the same space because they’re different sexes is astounding. Can they really not see that what they are saying makes no sense?