Is it not possible to have "trans rights" and "women's rights" at the same time?

[Artmumcreative]

I suppose I just think debate is too polarised. I think the answer might be to have third spaces (e.g. a separate toilet a bit like a disabled toilet) for trans women, so they're safe and women are safe. I think it would be nice if women supported transpeople and transpeople supported women (e.g at a trans rights demo and a women's rights demo). Not all transwomen are rapists, just as not all men are.

No the demands of men who identify as trans women and the rights of women are not compatible.

These men will not be satisfied with third spaces.

But all TW are men. We provide single sex spaces based on sex, not identity.

Gosh why has no one thought of this before? Oh wait we did and were told we were were nazi bigots

as has been pointed out before on this board, it's not the space it's the women in the space. A space without the women in it is just a room and not remotely validating

This ⬆️.

I have no time or energy to support men.

You seem very nice and sweet, but you have jumped to the wrong conclusion here.

I get it. Honestly I do.

You think that if so many people, nice people like authors and TV stars and Green party politicians and students and LGBT groups are this angry with us we must be saying something really really bad.

It would never occur to you that the women saying "No" to transwomen really are just saying "No, we don't feel ok about pretending you are female just like us because you are not in fact just like us. We face challenges and consequences and experiences that you don't, and vice versa we are sure. And sometimes those differences matter and it's not ok to say we can never talk about that, or that we can never have places you can't come in, or that we can't have a name in language and law that just means female people."

And yet that really is all that it is. There is no middle ground, no compromise, that is acceptable to a man who needs women to pretend he is the same as them. It's total capitulation or nothing.

using women’s toilets is a huge part of validating their fantasy that they’ve become actual women, so third spaces, however many there are and however lovely they are, won’t be wanted by transwomen. If they were at a huge concert venue and the women’s loo had a massive long queue and the accessible third space was empty, they’d go for the long queue. It’s a validation exercise.

"I think the answer might be to have third spaces (e.g. a separate toilet a bit like a disabled toilet) for trans women"

I think that's a great idea too. Now go post this on Reddit and BlueSky to convince all the other people who identify as trans to agree to tha, bc most of them scream that's unacceptable and somehow erases their existence whenever we bring it up.

Please tell me specifically what other "trans rights" I as a woman and US/UK citizen you expect me to support that you don't already have?

OP, the middle ground would have to involve the activists accepting and permitting women to have some spaces of their own.

They won't.

It wasn't women who decided it was a zero sum game.

Go try the middle ground reasonability on reddit. Brace yourself.

It's not about the space, OP. It's about the women in the space. It is they who provided the validation.

The space is just four walls and a floor. As soon as the women leave and go elsewhere, the 'elsewhere' is the desired space.

The women are the resource. Not the space, it is they who are being utilised,

A space does not provide validation unless there are women in it.

Third spaces have been suggested for 10 years. They are not wanted unless they are exclusively for women.

And yes. Nothing left now for men.

The men have the government, all the charities, the NHS, the police and the press in their corner. All the energy I have goes to women.

This mess demonstrates why women have to have watertight legal protections from men - because the world is entirely men focused, male-interest dominated, too many people still see women as walking service units for men who shouldn't be allowed to say no, and men take what they want without caring or reciprocation.

It's as if all those years of #NoDebate didn't happen.
It's as if letters by prominent people to Stonewall saying "Hey👋 can we talk about this please?"
It's as if WPUK being named as a "hate group" by various front bench PLP MP's never happened.

It's as if some very brave women & a few rare men haven't invested time, careers & raised millions to help row back on ; Academic freedom, the right of free speech, clarity of existing legislation (G'wan 4WS!), the abbatoir formally known as the kids section of The Tavistock etc, etc its easier to just think of Terf's lawfare as the polar opposite of The Good Law Project - we win, they lose.

Not all men are rapists - but 100% of "trans women" are men.

I don't give a shiny fucking shite where these paraphillic men go - so long as its away from women & girls sinhle sex spaces & sports.

"I suppose I just think debate is too polarised"

Examples please, of this "polarised" debate you object to. And I mean examples form both sides, so we can see what exactly you are referring to.

Still here OP?
Worth remembering that no women anywhere in the world campaigned to have men sharing changing rooms, showers etc. This was a totally male led demand that positions women & girls as support humans, responsible for undressing in front of men confused about their sex.

Transgenderism has got as far as it has (including the unforgivable transitioning of children below the age of consent) because transactivists bullied and threatened, managing to influence society out of respecting the rights of women and children to safety, privacy etc. This all happened in plain sight.

Finally people have woken up with countless brave women and men saying no and using the courts to confirm that women have the right not to be bullied into stripping in front of random men. (see the Darlington Nurses tribunal for today's example)

Excellent points.

Bear in mind, third spaces would have the consenting women in them getting undressed.

They won't do.

Work that one out and you're pretty much there.

Funnily enough, OP has not come back.

Trans rights and women's rights do exist at the the same time. That is the current law.

What transpeople are asking for is an additional right to override women's rights. And that can never happen.

I'll hold back from this thread because last time someone posted about being kind and finding a middle ground I was told I was "acidic and bitter". In reality I'm sick to death of the "but what about the poor trans women" nonsense.

But I do just want to say to the OP that there is absolutely no middle ground. You either let men into womens spaces and categories or you don't. In regards to "the poor trans women who just want to pee", I do not give a monkeys about these men and I do not care where they pee as long as it's not in spaces designated for women.

I'll continue to support and fight for the rights of women and girls and by all means men can crack on and fight for what they want. But I will not be diverting any of my time or energy to them.

Transpeople have more rights than anyone else.

If transgender people want their own rights, then they should campaign for them, just like women have been doing for hundreds of years, disabled people for tens of years. The majority don't want to though.

Ah, maybe she’s taken the advice upthread and taken her reasonable proposal over to Reddit where they’re all saying “Gosh! What a brilliant idea, why did no-one think of that before!”

OP, first of all, yes transwomen and transmen should have the same rights that every other subject/citizen is entitled to. Absolutely. No questions.
Spoiler alert: they already have them

What they are not entitled to is having women's rights as well as their own.
I mean the rights and entitlements that are given to women as a social group, based on our ID as biological females with XX chromosomes, etc.
Like rights to our own spaces when it is important, e.g. for safety, dignity or comfort.

On a more practical level:
Do you know how few transpeople there are in the UK, OP? According to the last Census, there may be about 250,000. For comparison, the number of disabled people is estimated at 16 million.
The population of the UK at the time of the last Census was around 68 million. Trans rights activists are so vocal - at at times violent - that you'd be forgiven for thinking there were millions of them.

They are a tiny proportion of the population. They are not marginalised - far from it! They already have all the rights they are entitled to as UK subjects. They are 100% entitled to their rights, but they are not entitled to women's rights as well.
To transpeople, their rights and no more.
To women, our rights and no less.

edited to say: I had a fair idea that OP was AWOL, but sometimes it's useful to formulate answers even if the questioner isn't listening..

It's not the space TWs want to use, it's the women in it. Whether that's for validation or voyeurism. I support third spaces even though they are not for me. I don't see many TWs supporting them. For the reason above.

A few years ago a couple of biology-realist, non rights-colonising TW created a petition, which another such posted on our petitions board - which unfortunately doesn’t get much visibility. And of course these brave people got no real support from the so-called ‘LGBT community’. Miranda is the TW who infamously got taken to court by a woman trans activist for …. Transphobia. The case was slung out but this shows what sensible, principled people were up against.

I just found it - the petition got no responses from the political leaders of the day.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitionsnoticeboard/3752551-Petition-for-third-spaces-Fionne-Miranda

It's not the space TWs want to use, it's the women in it.

Nutshell.

Hmm, OP hasn’t come back, maybe Artmumcreative‘s having a great time over on Reddit?