Is it not possible to have "trans rights" and "women's rights" at the same time?

[Artmumcreative]

I suppose I just think debate is too polarised. I think the answer might be to have third spaces (e.g. a separate toilet a bit like a disabled toilet) for trans women, so they're safe and women are safe. I think it would be nice if women supported transpeople and transpeople supported women (e.g at a trans rights demo and a women's rights demo). Not all transwomen are rapists, just as not all men are.

And, it would seem, the more unconsenting, the better

OP

Women have been suggesting third spaces for over a decade I believe.

Perhaps you should be posting on a different site to get the reasons why those are unacceptable

Because when we said yes to calling them "she" and "her", this happened.

Don't know why I’m still shocked when I read the OP and hit ‘see all’ and there is nothing….

Can you imagine how flush with third/fourth spaces, open categories and specialised services the nation would be if Stonewall et al had focused on that instead of lobbying Government to remove women's legal right to single sex services and spaces?

https://womansplaceuk.org/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemptions/

Instead they called women who suggested those things irredeemable bigots, said no debate, and forced women out of employment and now we're told, at the point where the existing law is actually being implemented as it should have been, that we're evil for not having suggested or supported the third spaces that we're now told is the obvious solution.

I don't think you'll come back OP. But here's a suggestion if you do.

Type Mumsnet and Third Spaces into Google and see how many times it has been suggested by the women on this board. And how many times TRA's shut down the idea because it's 'othering and transphobic'

Women's total capitulation is the only acceptable outcome for TRA's.

We're not the unreasonable ones. We're not the ones telling people to 'die in a grease fire'. We're not the ones fighting for the right for violent male sex offenders to be placed in the female prison estate.

I do wonder, waspishly, how aware younger women are of where womens toilets, refuges and rape crisis centres actually came from. If you grow up with all this established stuff maybe it's easy to assume women just said "We need these things please" and they just manifested complete with public funding etc.
Easy to think it's ok to give them away if you have no idea of how difficult they were to get in the first place.

Trans women are women though. You are confused here, not the trans community.

Start your own thread if that's what you want to discuss. I'll happily try to explain to you why that's nonsense, though I doubt you'll listen.

You do have to laugh at the idea that TRA's would support women at women's rights rallies given that, so far, they have instead -

• punched women in the face
• spat in their faces
• surrounded buildings and banged on the windows and doors
• held up posters with messages such as 'decapitate terfs', 'the only dead terf is good terf', 'bring back witch burnings' etc.
• shouted abuse through sound systems and played music at ear splitting levels to drown out women speaking.

And all these examples are just off the top of my head. There are so many more.

You won't find women doing the same at TRA rallies though.

now don't be a silly

There is absolutely nothing in the world that changes the pelvis in the left to the one on the right

So off you pop to Reddit and suggest that. I dare you 😂😂. Do you not think that was the solution women have been suggesting for years?

I’ll get the popcorn in.

Nope.

I suggest you attend a Let Women Speak event and then let us know how you get on with the howling mob trans activists there.

They always turn up to protest any women’s event so you’ll be guaranteed to meet some.

There is no evidence that men identifying as women are not safe in the men’s so we can keep things nice and simple and keep spaces based on sex, not ‘feelings’.

Strong agree. Younger women seem to have no idea that until the last few generations women were restricted from leaving the house for any length of time because THERE WERE NO PUBLIC FEMALE TOILETS. It was called the urinary leash. And early ones were burnt down, yes BURNT DOWN by men who objected to them. Jesus Christ. After listening to the Darlington nurses case today I might be quite angry.

Nope . A woman is an adult human female. Transwomen are male. It’s in the name. They are the opposite of women. I e men

I will definitely hold back but my bingo card is ready.

Once upon a time, there was a thread on one of the reddit legal boards, from a male person who wanted advice on how to get his employer to allow him to use the women's changing rooms at work. Various people helped him draft a letter, so the thread came to a close.

About nine months later, the OP bumped his thread again, seeking advice again; his female colleagues had stopped using the women's changing rooms. He wanted legal advice on how to force his female colleagues to use the changing rooms...

I think it'll be full up pretty quickly 😆

Thanks for proving our point to
OP so succinctly.

But ‘transwomen’ are men so no.

Thank you OP for popping in with this great idea that literally
no one else has managed to think of over the past decade or so of this debate. 😬

What’s the betting we’ve got a plop and run looking for screenshots….

😳😳😳

@Domesticatednottamed Yes, definitely to all that. And some believe that men very benevolently gave women our own single sex facilities- we didn’t even have to ask- men just sorted it out for us. It’s often men making this claim, unsurprisingly.

‘Men gave women their own spaces and now feminists are letting transwomen in!’ was one of the most infuriating things I’ve ever had to read on social media.

In what way?

As a Feminist, I'm concerned with the societal marginalisation and disempowerment of the female sex.

That is not something trans women are.

Therefore, I will continue to focus on female people and the experiences and needs that come with being female rather than the needs of transwomen.

Whether you agree that the people I am focussing on meet the definition of "woman" or not is immaterial*.

These people exist, we both know who they are, and we both know exactly why they are not the same as transwomen. Anything else is just sophistry, sexism and lies.

. * well, immaterial outside the (admittedly significant) practical issues of rewriting all the laws and history that referred to them as women because that's what the word used to mean. But that doesn't mean the actual people have changed.

That's making me feel weirdly nostalgic. I remember when that was a thing, and I hadn't really registered how little you see it now. It's just kind of faded away.

People used to fill tweets with multiple rows of it and clapping emojis.

Now we're lucky to get a plaintive whimper in an occasional Mumsnet thread.

Sad times.