Is it not possible to have "trans rights" and "women's rights" at the same time?

[Artmumcreative]

I suppose I just think debate is too polarised. I think the answer might be to have third spaces (e.g. a separate toilet a bit like a disabled toilet) for trans women, so they're safe and women are safe. I think it would be nice if women supported transpeople and transpeople supported women (e.g at a trans rights demo and a women's rights demo). Not all transwomen are rapists, just as not all men are.

Has anyone ever tried to stop these twits building their own bog?

I’m not a regular on this board but I’d ask what rights do you believe trans people should have that they don’t already and if granting those rights would remove some women’s rights. Ie access to women only spaces

But a TW wouldn’t use a WC built for trans women, because they are real women -Duh ! 😕

@Artmumcreative excellent idea, please post this on Reddit transgenderUK and let us know how it goes!

Duncan Bannatyne said he offered third spaces in his gyms and trans women refused - they wanted to use the women’s changing rooms.

the access to women is the point - at the most benign it’s about validating their delusion that they are women and at the most sinister it’s about voyeurism, indecent exposure and assault.

If trans rights activists were able to accept that trans women are trans women (not women) ie. perfectly entitled to campaign for their own spaces and services if they don’t want to use those of their biological sex, but NOT entitled to use women’s spaces and services…then yeah.

It would be “nice” if people just wore whatever they wanted and accepted who they are instead of trying to force an agenda on to others.
No amount of wearing a frock makes you a woman, anymore than I should be in the gents because I’ve got jeans on and haven’t pained my nails in years.

Well I suppose there are two problems there really

1- Does that mean we’d then have a male, female, trans-men and trans-women toilets, as well as the usual disabled toilets & baby changing. How many places do you know could reasonably accommodate a minimum of 5 different types of toilet?

2- I’m not sure transwomen WANT a third space, they want to use the womens because they have decided that is what they are.

First reply nailed it.

*painted

No one has blocked any attempts to set up third spaces, but as far as I know no one has tried to set them up either. Which is telling. Happy to be proven wrong.
Maybe men could help, give women a break from propping society up?

I've got enough supporting to do, why do I need to do any more?

As it stands, any man who violates female only spaces is taking away our rights, I don't see any loss of rights on the other side, what rights don't they have exactly?

Men need to stay out of women's spaces, and stop assaulting and raping us. That's every man, however they care to present themselves.

You must have missed the many years of us suggesting third spaces only to be called evil nazi bigots.

Trans people already have all the same rights as women. In many cases they have more eg right to alter birth certificate, right to hide previous identity on a DBS etc.

What trans people don't have the right to do and shouldn't have the right to do is force others to their beliefs. They cannot force me to believe that they have changed sex, no matter how much they believe it.

Once you accept that, the rest falls into place.

Yup
A few years ago I saw social media post about match funding for a 3rd space loo. It was a trans identified man who had got this funding and tried to raise the other half, but lo! Not a squeak of interest from the the trans identified, no donations, and yes, he concluded that it was getting into womens spaces that mattered most and gave up.
They've had years to do this, they don't want to, they want our stuff.

They don't have the right to hide previous identity on a DBS.

yes lets all just sit around a bonfire singing kum bya
Oh hang on we can't because some TA would like to throw women on it for knowing what biology is

@Artmumcreative we suggested a 3rd space years ago we were called Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists ie TERFs for doing so. The world swimming body tried to create a 3rd class so trans identifying males could compete without having to do so in the male class whilst protecting the women's class, none signed up.
Men who identify as trans dont want 3rd spaces they want women's spaces.
Why not take your 3 word username over to redit and ask them to stop sending death and rape threats to women who say no to their demands and tell them to use 3rd spaces. Do come back and tell us how it went

OP, a trans woman started a thread on here a few years ago. Claimed they just wanted to open a dialogue, and to see if any Mumsnetters would support transwomen.
I fell for it. I gave them the exact reasoning you just did. Wanted everyone to feel safe and included. Safe third spaces, mutual tolerance and respect, blah blah.
Got told I was a Terf. Quite brusquely 😂
My sentiments haven't changed, but I have embraced my terfiness. Who knew that a basic knowledge of natural science would turn me into a bigoted hag, eh!

Third spaces like this?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/03/swimming-world-cup-category-for-transgender-athletes-cancelled-after-no-entries-received?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

But most transwomen wouldn’t use separate trans toilets. For them, the whole point is validation by others that they are "real women".

This option does not seem to be popular, which makes it clear that for heterosexual trans males in particular, the use of the Ladies is what they like, rather than just “having a pee in safety” . Also I have never seen any stats showing that men who identify as trans are more at risk in the gents than any other men. There used to be a bloke on Twitter, Hope Pink, who went into all sorts of places and used the Gents, talking about how he wasn’t harassed by anyone. He would post a pic of himself outside, usually wearing a mini skirt and fishnets . He is a fairly small person, not large and intimidating.

When the SC ruling came out in April there were many protests at the idea that men with transgender identities should use men’s or gender neutral loos, because using a gender neutral loo is apparently outing and othering and amounts to racial segregation from the American civil rights era. However, many of those who protested were women keen to explain they’re happy to use gender neutral loos alongside men with transgender identities. Why their consenting presence isn’t good enough is anyone’s guess.

OP, whilst there are some posters here who are in favour of single sex provision with no alternatives (the key argument bring that third spaces are an unnecessary expense and uphold the construct of trans identities which they believe should be dismantled for a variety of reasons), many support the idea of third spaces.

Unfortunately, trans activist tend to object to third spaces on the grounds of finding them exclusionary and ‘othering’ - basically, they object to their gender identity not over-riding the sex category.

You are right to acknowledge that there are irreconcilable differences between those wanting single sex provision and those wanting what is presented as being single sex provision but includes the opposite sex when they have trans identities.

I think it’s reasonable to take different stances on the conflicting positions but it completely unreasonable to suggest wanting single sex provision is anti trans or reflecting a wish to deny trans people’s rights.

Not if 'trans rights' means 'men who wish they were women / like to present themselves as if they were women should be able to force everyone to pretend they are women and allow them them to do what they like in women's health provision, women-only spaces and events, places where women are undressing, going to the loo etc. even if women object', no.

Or if 'trans rights' means 'removing the very words women use to describe themselves as women and mothers from official discourse, preventing healthcare providers, government departments, journalists and legislators from using those words properly to describe actual women and mothers', then no.

If 'trans rights' means 'men and women who wish they were the opposite sex and wish to present themselves as such, should be free to call themselves 'transwomen' or 'transmen' and not be abused or prevented from earning a living or accessing services for the mere fact that they do this, and where all provision for their status begins with the acknowledgement that they are not the sex they present as, but that where it is possible they would like to be referred to as the sex they prefer to present as and provided with trans spaces where possible', then yes. As long as it's acknowledged that people's options - in employment roles, spaces they can access etc. - may be limited in a number of ways because they present as the opposite sex.

The only solution to women's rights and civil rights in general being compatible with people presenting as the sex they are not is for them, for everyone, to acknowledge, as politely as you like, that that is what they are doing - presenting as the opposite sex.